Originally Posted by lvrepoman

So since this discussion has strayed so far off course from the original question, and since we're all here, and also since I've never been able to get an answer to a few question's that I personally feel are worth asking...

A.O. Razor or Rik- Let's hypothetically say a guy has a 26-30 ft single engine vee hull. Let's also say that guy want's to upgrade power substantially because he'd like to add some speed all across the board. Now let's factor in some reality- this guy's boat came with a bravo, like 95% of the other boat's out there within it's class. Now let's also say this guy's boat weighs about 6000-6500 lbs running weight, and that he'd like to run over 100mph, and it should also be noted that this is a straight bottom boat with a narrow beam. Something else that should probably be mentioned here, is that his bulkhead is part of the structure unlike some other boats- it isn't just a separation panel behind the seat which could easily be moved forward at the loss of cockpit space, it's actually a fiberglass part of the deck structure that quite simply- cannot be moved. Now with all that said, let's say this guy builds an engine that makes somewhere in the 1500+hp range because he's an idiot. If he was to use your bravo conversion, what would you think would fail first? Then second? How low in the boat would the engine have to be mounted to accomodate your drive to obtain proper propshaft height? I have read here in several places, as well as on your website, that your transmission is rated to around 750hp? How much stronger could it be made? See, this guy would be limited in his drive choices due to the fact that his engine compartment does not have the length to accomodate a transmission, unless it was mounted inside an extension box... such as your's. Moving beyond the transmission, the drive articulates up and down, as well as side to side for trim and steering, correct? So there must be some sort of u-joint or cv shaft employed in it's design? How much power would that assembly safely handle? In looking at some pictures of this setup on your website, I notice it only seems to have 1 trim ram, and 1 steering ram... If something were to happen to the cv shaft or u-joint assembly, such as a catastrophic failure, what would keep the prop and rudder assembly from turning to one side or the other uncontrollably... such as would happen in a gimbal ring failure? How many different gear ratio's do you offer this unit with? I would assume that such a boat as described here, probably wouldn't respond very well in the name of handling with a huge diameter/huge pitch prop, so maybe this particular boat would need to keep the pitch down, and the prop speed up to keep it from rolling with the exaggerated pitch that would be required by higher ratio drive and lot's of hp, but still be able to maintain engine rpm.... I'm not being fecetious, these are genuine question's I have asked in the past because I genuinely want to know, but have never been able to obtain answer's to. I think at this juncture, these are answer's that everyone considering such a conversion should be privvy to. This is not a cheap swap. We're talking about enough money for one to go buy a whole complete boat with, just for a pair of drive's. You have stated more than several times that these other companies do not offer a compete propulsion package that could be considered comparably priced, because they generally do not come with steering and trim systems... But the fact is, 95% of the boat's out there, came with bravos and this universal equipment from the factory... So why would they include it? Now I do understand that not all boats came with hydraulic steering, and that that cost should be factored in with such a conversion... But most of the boats that people would be considering for such an upgrade, probably did. So how is this a dollar for dollar camparison? I'm not trying to be a dick, and I apologize if I come off as such... But what gives? Let's put this issue to bed once and for all, and then maybe we can all stop wasting so many hours of our life trying to wade through the bs on so many of these pages? Tell us all how your product is so much better in each aspect of the application. I want to hear how much safer it is, and how much stronger it is, and what cannot fail... I'm sure we all do. We'll leave the install and setup details aside for this, because your right, all boats are going to need a prop and seat time figuring out setup- regardless of what drive you use.

I'm all ears sir... I'm sure we all are....

Originally Posted by waconda

Rik by the way Fountain is open I spoke with Craig 2 weeks ago.

Originally Posted by lvrepoman

Rik, I know and understand that there is no gimbal ring in your design... But that's not what I asked. The question I asked, is what would happen if there was a failure of a component within your shaft assembly? Such as if there was a failure of a gimbal ring on a bravo setup? As I mentioned earlier, I only see 1 trim ram and 1 steering ram included within your design for this conversion. If there were to be a failure of something within your shaft assembly and it's associated u-joint/cv shaft hardware, what safety features are included in your design to keep the drive in place? With a gimbal ring failure, which can happen, on a properly equipped boat- there are generally 2 trim rams and 2 steering rams to keep the drive from going too far. It seems to me that if you take 1 leg out of a triangular configuration, you lose the strength needed to keep things from getting too far away...

Not to say that the choice I made for a drive on my particular craft is without flaw, but thus far it has lived up to the task of handling the power without issue. Now, I can only assume that time will tell the true fate of my equipment, but that time has yet to come. In fact, for what I spent to go the B-Max route, I feel that it was a good investment, and I have yet to find any regret in doing so. Will I have a gear failure at some point? I'm as sure of it as I am that the sun will come up tomorrow... But let's be fair here... it wasn't designed to do what I'm asking of it. Nor is your bravo replacement, or anyone elses for that matter. Would I have been better off with a #6, or possibly even a larger Arneson? Maybe so... but I'm not willing to cut my boat in multiple places to accomodate a transmission, nor am I willing to raise the engine any further or cut the transom any more. I just want these discussions about such topics kept fair. Buy what you want, sell what you can... But don't misrepresent what your selling to make the sale. I spoke with you 2 or 3 years ago about this boat, and you told me the ASD7M was what I needed, and that you didn't foresee me having ANY problem's. You also told me it was going to cost me 26k for the kit. But you couldn't tell me how it would work for my application. The only reason I opted not to go the arneson route was the lack of factual data available for craft's within my category. Would it have been a better choice? Maybe, I don't know... but the lack of readily available answers creates more than just a little skepticism, and I'm sure I'm not the only person here who feels this way.

Originally Posted by lvrepoman

Rik, I know and understand that there is no gimbal ring in your design... But that's not what I asked. The question I asked, is what would happen if there was a failure of a component within your shaft assembly? Such as if there was a failure of a gimbal ring on a bravo setup? As I mentioned earlier, I only see 1 trim ram and 1 steering ram included within your design for this conversion. If there were to be a failure of something within your shaft assembly and it's associated u-joint/cv shaft hardware, what safety features are included in your design to keep the drive in place? With a gimbal ring failure, which can happen, on a properly equipped boat- there are generally 2 trim rams and 2 steering rams to keep the drive from going too far. It seems to me that if you take 1 leg out of a triangular configuration, you lose the strength needed to keep things from getting too far away...

Not to say that the choice I made for a drive on my particular craft is without flaw, but thus far it has lived up to the task of handling the power without issue. Now, I can only assume that time will tell the true fate of my equipment, but that time has yet to come. In fact, for what I spent to go the B-Max route, I feel that it was a good investment, and I have yet to find any regret in doing so. Will I have a gear failure at some point? I'm as sure of it as I am that the sun will come up tomorrow... But let's be fair here... it wasn't designed to do what I'm asking of it. Nor is your bravo replacement, or anyone elses for that matter. Would I have been better off with a #6, or possibly even a larger Arneson? Maybe so... but I'm not willing to cut my boat in multiple places to accomodate a transmission, nor am I willing to raise the engine any further or cut the transom any more. I just want these discussions about such topics kept fair. Buy what you want, sell what you can... But don't misrepresent what your selling to make the sale. I spoke with you 2 or 3 years ago about this boat, and you told me the ASD7M was what I needed, and that you didn't foresee me having ANY problem's. You also told me it was going to cost me 26k for the kit. But you couldn't tell me how it would work for my application. The only reason I opted not to go the arneson route was the lack of factual data available for craft's within my category. Would it have been a better choice? Maybe, I don't know... but the lack of readily available answers creates more than just a little skepticism, and I'm sure I'm not the only person here who feels this way.

Originally Posted by offshorexcursion

KWright....Yes they are all the same "type" of drive, a surface drive. Whats your point?

My point is they all don't handle the same. NXT's do not work well with fountains. #6's do. no one one here has talked about how the asd works on their Fountain. KJM talks about his boat handling differently with the asd's. It will be nice to here what the diff. is. I'm sure it would be different if they were say #6's. I'm not knocking the asd's just trying to learn but everytime someone ask a question the answer is their the best, most speed gain' cheapest to convert, ect. Ok I would just like to ask someone who has walked those steps thats all, not putting you down but just not sure you can answer these from experience.