LOTO MSWP Man Overboard Drowning
09-12-2014, 04:39 PM
#141
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So let me get this straight, I get arrested and the cops decides to throw me out the car at 50mph I guess It`s my fault for getting arrested!?!? Who thinks like that!?!?
The fact that he "doesn`t know nautical term" or how to properly put on a life jacket to make sure a man in his care is safely transported is mind boggling.
The fact that he "doesn`t know nautical term" or how to properly put on a life jacket to make sure a man in his care is safely transported is mind boggling.
Last edited by ICDEDPPL; 09-12-2014 at 04:56 PM.
09-12-2014, 05:07 PM
#142
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Yea..... But if you jumped... Which is a contention point between the witnesses...
Thus in lies the responsibility argument that has been going on since it started. There is no question the WP messed up, but..... There is also responsibility on the kid and who served him the alcohol in the first place since he was underage...
I am glad my tax money is going to help fund this fight.... NOT!
Thus in lies the responsibility argument that has been going on since it started. There is no question the WP messed up, but..... There is also responsibility on the kid and who served him the alcohol in the first place since he was underage...
I am glad my tax money is going to help fund this fight.... NOT!
09-12-2014, 05:58 PM
#143
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Let me set the record straight on my posts....THe WP may have indeed done something wrong that jepordized the guys life. what I was trying to say is that if the guy had not made the choice to drink in the fiirst place, he would not have given the WP the possibilty of doing something wrong ending his life.
09-13-2014, 12:03 AM
#144
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Than you as an attorney should naturally know: 0.0% BAC is the legal limit on people under the age of 21.
There has no disputing he had been drinking, nor that he flunked the on board sobriety test, nor that he doesn't sit there like he was supposed to... One can protect only up to the point a person refuses to be protected...and makes a decision above all common sense.
As an Attorney, I understand your job is to dilute the situation until your client gets the least amount of punishment... That is your job. But there is also people that do believe, that people ARE responsible for their own actions. Let me be clear, I am not a saint, nor am I preaching, but I philosophically disagree with saying the kid has no responsibility in his own demise.....
There has no disputing he had been drinking, nor that he flunked the on board sobriety test, nor that he doesn't sit there like he was supposed to... One can protect only up to the point a person refuses to be protected...and makes a decision above all common sense.
As an Attorney, I understand your job is to dilute the situation until your client gets the least amount of punishment... That is your job. But there is also people that do believe, that people ARE responsible for their own actions. Let me be clear, I am not a saint, nor am I preaching, but I philosophically disagree with saying the kid has no responsibility in his own demise.....
If text below is accurate, I don't believe he jumped. If you are hitting tall waves, going 40 MPH in a small boat, sitting down being handcuffed behind your back, I for sure would not be comfortable. It could be a perfectly natural reaction to protect yourself to stand up, only problem is he is intoxicated, and it is difficult to hold onto anything when being handcuffed behind the back, so I think he simply lost balance and went overboard.
With Ellingson beside him, Piercy sped toward the zone office. At the 3.5-mile mark of the Gravois Arm, they encountered tall waves.
“I made the comment to him,” Piercy said. “I said, ‘There’s some big waves coming.’ I said, ‘I’m going to slow down, so don’t lean forward and hit your head.’”
He said that another passenger the previous week had hit his head on a computer on the boat’s console.
“The first wave hits the boat as we were sitting down, and we roll over the wave and go down into the … bottom.”
“Trough,” Johnson interjected.
“Yeah, I don’t know the nautical term, but we go down to the bottom of the wave and the second wave is about ready to hit the boat.
“At this time, Mr. Ellingson stands up out of the seat beside me …”
He left the boat. Piercy said he reached for Ellingson, but “I was unsuccessful in getting a hand on him.”
Johnson asked, “Did he jump over? Or did he fall over?”
Piercy: “I don’t know. I’ve, believe me, played this scenario through my mind a million times, and I don’t know. All I know is he’s beside me, and then he’s not.”
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/state...#storylink=cpy
With Ellingson beside him, Piercy sped toward the zone office. At the 3.5-mile mark of the Gravois Arm, they encountered tall waves.
“I made the comment to him,” Piercy said. “I said, ‘There’s some big waves coming.’ I said, ‘I’m going to slow down, so don’t lean forward and hit your head.’”
He said that another passenger the previous week had hit his head on a computer on the boat’s console.
“The first wave hits the boat as we were sitting down, and we roll over the wave and go down into the … bottom.”
“Trough,” Johnson interjected.
“Yeah, I don’t know the nautical term, but we go down to the bottom of the wave and the second wave is about ready to hit the boat.
“At this time, Mr. Ellingson stands up out of the seat beside me …”
He left the boat. Piercy said he reached for Ellingson, but “I was unsuccessful in getting a hand on him.”
Johnson asked, “Did he jump over? Or did he fall over?”
Piercy: “I don’t know. I’ve, believe me, played this scenario through my mind a million times, and I don’t know. All I know is he’s beside me, and then he’s not.”
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/state...#storylink=cpy
There is always somebody who is going to reframe the facts to absolve the police of their actions no matter how clearly they were in the wrong.
Last edited by blown; 09-13-2014 at 12:06 AM.
09-13-2014, 07:18 AM
#145
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I have been going by the facts as they are known. There was numerous witnesses at the time of the accident that stated the kid jumped. BUT... that is subjective because NO One was on the boat but him and the officer and the witnesses were at a distance. So did he jump or was he bounced out, that is the question. If you read the entire article, he did not leave the boat at the same time as they hit the wave. It was after...And if he was "thrown" out of the boat don't yopu think a persons body would look like a bobbling mass and people would expect it to look like that as he went in, not appear to jump. (This is MY hypothetical observation, truth is no one here knows)
Here is the facts: 1) He was 3x the legal limit for adults BAC + a trace of Cocaine was also in his system 2) He was underage. 3) someone served him or made available the booze and Drugs 4) he was arrested for that infraction. And then ALL the facts start to get blurry except the obvious, he was handcuffed and an improper PFD was placed upon him. And finally: 1 career will likely be over and another ones life is over.
I Don't think anyone will disagree that WP officer needs some type of reprimand. But was it criminal or civil. At this point, it appears it will be civil. And we as tax payers will get to pay the bill. NOT you out of staters, but those of us that live in Missouri.
At this point I think the question is what is the settlement going to be and how can that be used to make things better overall, not just pay a bunch of money that does no "real good".
Here is the facts: 1) He was 3x the legal limit for adults BAC + a trace of Cocaine was also in his system 2) He was underage. 3) someone served him or made available the booze and Drugs 4) he was arrested for that infraction. And then ALL the facts start to get blurry except the obvious, he was handcuffed and an improper PFD was placed upon him. And finally: 1 career will likely be over and another ones life is over.
I Don't think anyone will disagree that WP officer needs some type of reprimand. But was it criminal or civil. At this point, it appears it will be civil. And we as tax payers will get to pay the bill. NOT you out of staters, but those of us that live in Missouri.
At this point I think the question is what is the settlement going to be and how can that be used to make things better overall, not just pay a bunch of money that does no "real good".
09-13-2014, 09:14 AM
#146
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It will do good...not so much for the family. It will force the agencies to do their job as they do not want another suit...at least that is what i would like to see.
Btw...It does not matter if the kid jumped or fell neither does it matter his bac or that he broke the law. The kid was in custody of the officer...meaning that the officer is responsible for the young man's well being. The kid did **** up bye getting arrested...the officer ****ed up bye cutting corners and not fastening the jacket properly. Sadly it doesn't look like he will be reprimanded. Oh well he has to live with his conscience.
Btw...It does not matter if the kid jumped or fell neither does it matter his bac or that he broke the law. The kid was in custody of the officer...meaning that the officer is responsible for the young man's well being. The kid did **** up bye getting arrested...the officer ****ed up bye cutting corners and not fastening the jacket properly. Sadly it doesn't look like he will be reprimanded. Oh well he has to live with his conscience.
09-13-2014, 10:57 AM
#147
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I have been going by the facts as they are known. There was numerous witnesses at the time of the accident that stated the kid jumped. BUT... that is subjective because NO One was on the boat but him and the officer and the witnesses were at a distance. So did he jump or was he bounced out, that is the question. If you read the entire article, he did not leave the boat at the same time as they hit the wave. It was after...And if he was "thrown" out of the boat don't yopu think a persons body would look like a bobbling mass and people would expect it to look like that as he went in, not appear to jump. (This is MY hypothetical observation, truth is no one here knows)
Here is the facts: 1) He was 3x the legal limit for adults BAC + a trace of Cocaine was also in his system 2) He was underage. 3) someone served him or made available the booze and Drugs 4) he was arrested for that infraction. And then ALL the facts start to get blurry except the obvious, he was handcuffed and an improper PFD was placed upon him. And finally: 1 career will likely be over and another ones life is over.
I Don't think anyone will disagree that WP officer needs some type of reprimand. But was it criminal or civil. At this point, it appears it will be civil. And we as tax payers will get to pay the bill. NOT you out of staters, but those of us that live in Missouri.
At this point I think the question is what is the settlement going to be and how can that be used to make things better overall, not just pay a bunch of money that does no "real good".
Here is the facts: 1) He was 3x the legal limit for adults BAC + a trace of Cocaine was also in his system 2) He was underage. 3) someone served him or made available the booze and Drugs 4) he was arrested for that infraction. And then ALL the facts start to get blurry except the obvious, he was handcuffed and an improper PFD was placed upon him. And finally: 1 career will likely be over and another ones life is over.
I Don't think anyone will disagree that WP officer needs some type of reprimand. But was it criminal or civil. At this point, it appears it will be civil. And we as tax payers will get to pay the bill. NOT you out of staters, but those of us that live in Missouri.
At this point I think the question is what is the settlement going to be and how can that be used to make things better overall, not just pay a bunch of money that does no "real good".
For the record, yes, I'm a MO tax payer as well.
09-13-2014, 02:29 PM
#148
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I have been going by the facts as they are known. There was numerous witnesses at the time of the accident that stated the kid jumped. BUT... that is subjective because NO One was on the boat but him and the officer and the witnesses were at a distance. So did he jump or was he bounced out, that is the question. If you read the entire article, he did not leave the boat at the same time as they hit the wave. It was after...And if he was "thrown" out of the boat don't yopu think a persons body would look like a bobbling mass and people would expect it to look like that as he went in, not appear to jump. (This is MY hypothetical observation, truth is no one here knows)
I Don't think anyone will disagree that WP officer needs some type of reprimand. But was it criminal or civil. At this point, it appears it will be civil. And we as tax payers will get to pay the bill. NOT you out of staters, but those of us that live in Missouri.
At this point I think the question is what is the settlement going to be and how can that be used to make things better overall, not just pay a bunch of money that does no "real good".
Here is the facts: 1) He was 3x the legal limit for adults BAC + a trace of Cocaine was also in his system 2) He was underage. 3) someone served him or made available the booze and Drugs 4) he was arrested for that infraction. And then ALL the facts start to get blurry except the obvious, he was handcuffed and an improper PFD was placed upon him. And finally: 1 career will likely be over and another ones life is over.
At this point I think the question is what is the settlement going to be and how can that be used to make things better overall, not just pay a bunch of money that does no "real good".
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/state...#storylink=cpy
Now if a alleged DUI/BUI defendant has a BAC of .268 he is clearly f*cked up, and for a patrolman with 18 years experience to not see this and take the proper precautions is a disgrace. Either he is lazy, stupid, or has not been properly trained in suspect transport on boats. My last assumption that the officer lacks training is evidenced by the fact that he has been a water patrolman for only one year plus a few months +/- out of eighteen years of law enforcement experience per the article, "Piercy is an 18-year Highway Patrol road veteran who was starting his second season helping on the lake.
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/state...#storylink=cpy
I am done with this thread, the officer's actions in my opinion are not criminal, he is only as good as the training he receives, he made several errors, and it cost the suspect his life. He should have had better training, a second officer should have responded to the scene of the arrest or been with him at the scene on his boat and or for transport.
The Missouri Water Patrol needs to retrain and rewrite suspect policy and procedures, and train their officers with regards to suspect transport on the vessels/boats. This does not require a task force and investigatory committee to figure this out just common sense and it does require men with experience in boat/vessel handling, proper PFD selection and DUI knowledge to help rewrite this policy and procedure . Ask the US Coast Guard for advice as well as other states with a water patrol such as Florida, New Jersey, ect., then implement policy to avoid another error by the patrolman. I could write this policy & procedure if they want to pay me. It is not that complex or difficult, common sense, research, and experience go along way to solving problem(s). There is a problem, a young man drowned, he was impaired, it was preventable,.....solve the problem within your realm, and control. Prisoner transport. Officer training.
Don't even ask me on my legal opinion about Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice. Keep in mind I am a defense attorney....
Stephen "Smarty" Jones
boatless for now
Last edited by Smarty; 09-13-2014 at 02:46 PM.
09-13-2014, 02:49 PM
#149
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My 7 year old granddaughter knows how to put on her PFD properly, even when she's in a rush to jump in the Lake or the pool, too bad this WP officer didn't have the common sense of a 7 yo, truly sad tragedy.
Last edited by 314joey; 09-14-2014 at 07:03 AM.
