Fountain vs Outer L racing
 

Just watched the last race in Clearwater SBI with the 12 year old(?) Fountain whipping the pants off the latest state of the art and world class crew in OL. What gives that OL cant even come close IMO. I don't care that the points were so close at the end of season. Im not a fan of one vs the other but more confused as to how this is possible. Is the Fountains bottom efficiency just that good?

In :food-smiley-007:

Sounds like another guy fishing to start a keyboard argument.

Not one of those boats in that class or really any class is a stock boat. Not a fountain or a Ol or any other brand. (Stock Toyota Camry's, Ford Fusion's dont win nascar races) Neither do stock fountains or OL's win super boat races.
IMO you answered your own question in your opening statement. A Fountain that has been dialed in between every race for 12 years over and over did beat the not even 1 year old OL who also has been getting dialed in better and better between every race for almost 1 year now. For 12 years they have been dialing in the fountain, for 1 year they have been dialing in the OL getting closer to that benchmark. The OL has gotten things better throughout the season. Obviously the setup on that day was not good enough to beat the Instigator boat.

Absolutely not trying to start any arguments. This is more of a engineering question that I find interesting. I understand these are not production boats and I am not comparing production boats. I am comparing spec race boats with equal rules. Im stating that I am shocked new tec still cant tighten up the gap and why? This race has been going on for many years not just this one year. The difference that I see is that Fountain seems to have hit the sweet spot with that hull and after several OL attempts at new hull designs over the years they are still chasing. This just leaves question for me. Have the Fountain hulls been continually modified over the years or are they the same as new? Those are my kind of questions.

I thought the OL had been out there over a year now but not sure.

The dialing in over time does wonders for race vehicles. It's the same thing DUCATI did back in the nineties, they would continue to develop basically the same platform, while the Japanese companies would come out with something new every few years.

Won DUCATI a lot of championships.

Still is fun to say how a 12 year old boat is beating the latest and greatest though!

LOL

Instigator not only runs well, it's also one
of the baddest sounding boats you'll hear

I wish that class had more boats in it.

Same story year after year....Fountains wins on the race course, that's the way it is. Your bottom efficiency question is a good question....

I was there to bare witness. Instigator looks and SOUNDS great from the shore. Actually, out of all 3 races NOTHING sounds like Instagator. Not only that but it always looks like its on the limit and coming down the front it would just surge like the were wringing every ounce out of it. Yes, the cats were great but to hear them beat the pizz out of the Instigator boat is epic.

INSTIGATOR OFFSHORE RACING TEAM.

All I know is that Instigator is the baddest sounding boat I have ever heard! When it goes by you instantly know it is Instigator.

Padraig

Interesting thread if it can stay on course, don't follow racing but same engines & hp?

Does anyone know how many steps are on the OL? What are the beams on each? The other 42 Fountain that Billy Glick owns runs almost exactly the same speeds as Instigator so IMO there is something about the design that works better than others. Props? 5 blades vs 6?

This isn’t really anything new. The Fountains have always had the edge on the race course. Every time there is a show down with SPEED at a RACE it’s Fountain 90% of the time. You can’t expect to win every time and OL is a formatable openet with out a doubt. But let’s face it Fountains are faster. And like the thread starter mentioned- a boat still hard to beat that’s old. Ya the OL is new and can use more tweaking, but shouldn’t it’s adavantage be in some new technoligy??

By reading your posts on this topic here and in other forum topics. It’s clear you are pretty biased. On the other thread you stated the Fountain was slower and it was fully dialed in as a pleasure boat. Talking about the 42 with 1350s Ben did. But of course now the 10 year old boat is still beating up on your newer boat, and isn’t dialed in. I mean whatever excuse and story that helps you sleep at night. I understand your bias towards a brand you clearly love and are loyal too. But don’t immediately jump to saying- oh it’s a race boat not a production boat. They were both built out of their respective factories. It’s been going on for decades- OLs 2nd to none on style fit and finish and quality. But start trying to swallow the pill that when it comes to performance and competition the score is very lopsided. And the brand that hasn’t been built for years CONTINUES TO BE THE BOAT TO BEAT. Think about that for a moment. And that is exactly the point Typhoon is trying to make. Nothing more nothing less.

😨😨😨just peeking.LOL

Stupid me didn't think about how controversial this would be so in the light of hindsight, I've revised my post........

Answer: YES but it needs the right driver to prove it.

RR

You could flip any race boat that size and work weeks on the bottom. And then balance. And then knowing how and when to change the balance in water conditions. Then add prop choices and drive height adjustments. A lot is being able to look at the water make your choices and hope it doesn't change by the time you get there. I think they know there boat. That sure helps along with luck.

OL vs. Beaks... and the silly season is just starting..

Its going to be a looonnnggggg winter folks.

I understand making the call and missing the setup but how many times has the OL won against the Fountain in any kind of water. Have they ever? I have been going to Key West for many years rooting for the OL teams with what I was told was a top secret new set up. I have only seen the 2 Fountains battling for first. I have been getting my butt kicked by Fountain for years personally so I have no love for them either. How do you measure eff. of a hull? Is it HP and weight vs MPH fully dialed in for max speed?

O/L won in Michigan City this year.....Instigator broke on lap 10

precision: I am only taking the time to type the facts since you feel the need to attack me as if I'm being unfair or not stating the facts!

I am a OL repeat Customer and happy with that. (this next sentence is opinion based.) I think OL's are extremely well put together, thought out in where things should go, fit and finish, looks, top speed, acceleration and handling are all on top of what is out there for Pleasure boats.
Now to answer back some of your questions/statements with facts...

#1 to start, I posted the facts on another thread. The 42 lightning I spoke of Ben worked on the re rig and set up. After the setup it ran 140 MPH. That is a fact not a opinion.
Several new 43 OL V's with the same power 1350 and drives #8 have run 150-152 mph depending on the layup and misc. The latest is a Orange 2016 for sale in classifieds right now and it ran 151 mph. That is a fact not a opinion.
There is a few year old 44 repowered with merc 1100's and it runs approx 137 maybe even 138 as a full stand up pleasure boat with again merc 1100's. That is a fact not a opinion.
There is a couple of standup full cabin 41' stock 700 boats that ran 116 or 117 mph from the factory. That also is a fact not a opinion
If your beloved fountain is so fast bring it out and show the world! I have not seen one win a straight line shootout event lately with a newer sl or sv of same boat size and same motor size.
Out in the poker run world when the OL SV's and SL's are out there I have not seen any of the fountains passing them or beating them to the card stops, how come? Rough or Calm it hasnt mattered.
I'm sorry, for some reason you take offense to the facts. But they are what they are. If the fountain boats were faster same power same size, the facts would show that.

#2 Do you honestly believe the fountain Instigator or any race boat has not been being changed and updated after each and every race to make it faster? So your thoughts are they built the boat 12 years ago did some maintenance between now and then and it was just as fast then as it is now? If that is what you believe then your off your rocker. There is no doubt that Instigator is a great running boat! They have a great setup, they know the boat well and what the boat likes and does not like. That comes with time. The technology you keep speaking of? What technology is that, that the Instigator boat has not or could not incorporate into there boat? They can have every piece of technology that any race boat can have. They cut the bottoms off race boats to move things around if they think it will give them a edge of any sort. People go broke racing boats (or anything for that matter) because of this.
Instigator originally may have been made 12 years ago but its been continually updated and the crew and drivers are masters of setting that boat up and running it.
Both boats were made at a factory of course. Both boats have been taken apart and redone, one just for the past 12 years and one for 11 months now.
There is no doubt the instigator boat and team makes its way around the track extremely well. The OL boat is making gains, apparently its not there yet on a every day basis. The OL team also is not just going race to race doing nothing, they are changing things between races to make the boat faster on the race course.
None of these boats are boats you would take from the race track and go drive around for fun all day and handle like your pleasure boat.

#3 Swallow a pill that performance and score is lopsided... Hmmm
Well once again I will tell the truth and the facts.
Straight line or poker run speeds in PRODUCTION boats. The facts speak for themselves. take a 700 boat, take a 1100 boat, take a 1350 boat in the same or similar size. OL dominates every single one of them. Precision, if you need examples look them up. The facts are the facts.
Superboat course in RACE boats. Those facts also speak for themselves lately. The Instigator Fountain boat has been on top most of the time. They have there program together and boat tuned in well. (See I dont need to give no excuses here precision)

Hopefully as you can see, I may like and enjoy my OL boats and hope they do well at a race. But I also tell the truth and tell the facts, win loose or draw. I dont really need any excuses so I sleep well at night because I tell the truth and facts. I Dont need to call people out like yourself. I dont stalk peoples past posts. But since you have hopefully you now can understand me and the facts a little more.
On the other hand I know nothing about you, not even going to take 30 sec to read some of your past post, but from this post attacking me, It sure seams like your the one who is either in Love with Fountain boats and struggles with anyone not in agree ance with your opinions.

There is a 29 OL single that won a whole lot of races.
In superboat racing my opinion is there is a whole lot of things that come into play in order to win, and it has to have the right amount of everything, a great balance, to much of one thing not enough of another and no dice.
The boat has to accelerate hard
The boat has to corner hard and be able to carry speed
The boat needs to be able to have good top speed
The boat needs to have that speed in the water conditions that are present. To bouncy in rough conditions prop and boat out of water is no good. To planted in flat water will be slow
The drivers need to work together and feel comfortable with the boat
alot of things come into play I believe on racing.

Hustlerguy-

LOL oh please get over yourself. Stalk you? Haha no just observant in these Fountain vs OL threads! Not sure I have the energy to reply to the novel you wrote, but to sum it up yes I’m a Fountain Guy, I don’t struggle with anything. Clearly you continue to miss the point. Gee sorry there haven’t been new Fountains being built to compare more to Your comparing million dollar carbon layup sit down boats to older Fountain models. Cool for u bro! (Lol Joke) Now for you PR compairasons- lol cute again! Comparing pleasure boating done in PRs wouldn’t be the most competitive atmosphere.

Now one in my 1st message I wouldn’t consider that an attack. Sorry you took it that way.



You wanted to state facts- yes ones that are already well known!

Back to the original reason of the thread- 12 year old FountIn, sure it’s been worked on but... 12 year old Fountain get it?!!

Lastly my lopsided comment- you really gonna tell me in head to head completion on a RACE course (gee where everyone knows it’s a race) it’s not a one sided ass whooping for over 2 decades in favor of the beak.


PS- I don’t know you either, nothing personal. This is boat trash talk just like sports team trash talk. If we were in person at a bar I’d buy 1st round. And did you ever get the PM I sent you months ago about the detailing product? BTW- I did compliment you on your boats. And let me be clear- OLs are bad ass. But I enjoy the jabbing and competition side.

the 29 ol got caught cheating many times.
the dominatating fountain in that class got caught cheating as well.both owned by same person.
so not good comparison

Is the OL a carbon layup?

Outerlimits Powerboats: Construction & Design.

I don't even know why I am getting into this... ha

How long did it take for the Jimmy John's Skater to be competitive? Honest question from someone who pays limited attention to the races.

There are several threads about OL being very satisfied with new pleasure boat sea trial speeds.

The 12 yr. old Fountain is a cool story, but I think the real takeaway here is some people know how to setup race boats and some know how to setup top speed.

:popcorn:

Disclaimer: This is what I have been told by several sources, as within anything dealing with Offshore racing or performance boating in general, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see"

The direct answer to Typhoons question is the pad design. I was informed for years that Mike refused to utilize a true pad as "if I wanted a padded bottom I would buy a Fountain" It wasnt till a born and bred Fountain guy went over to the OL camp and played with the pad and the result was the Vee record and whatever record the 29 obtained that day(not a legal motor for any spec class) that actually took place in the Pamlico right behind the Fountain factory.

Also I was told that back in the day of the "Fountain Factory Race Team" that it had a budget of approx 4 million a year(please refer to disclaimer above) and as Typhoon can first hand attest, Offshore racing consists mainly on "time and money". I can first hand attest that back in 2002, Reggie threw everything but the kitchen sink at my little baby 29 F1 Fever in order to obtain the kilo record. I know OL has not and would never sink that kind of whad into a "race program"

Hustlerguy, you have an impressive stable, OL's are incredible boats, but unfortunately with the long legacy of cheating, I can only accept 1 true victory for the OL 29 and that was Race 2 of the KW Worlds 2016, this was after getting caught in Race 1 and impressively having all the legal parts sitting on the trailer to work double time in order to take the green on Friday. I am pretty sure for once(which is a miracle) Typhoon will agree the driver/throttleman(1 person) of the 29 OL is a really talented gentleman, we both would just hope and pray that for once he would come out for once totally legal(as Klaatu reminded us, he cheated, got caught, in both the Fountain and the OL) so we can all see how the boat is compared to the rest of the manufacturers...As far as the question of the thread, we all know beyond a doubt the talent that is in the OL SV Extreme vs/compared to Instigator having a rookie driver and a revolving throttle seat, hopefully the changes made to the OL boat, setup will provide great racing for all to see in KW this year. if no changes are made, Instigator by a mile for their what? 14th, 15th World title

Fountain used to have an entire division of the factory (separate building) devoted to racing. Thats what Reggie did, he was a racer. So those Fountain race boats bare very little resemblance to the production boat and they spent a lot of time and money in R&D, setup, and testing.

I don't think OL has any desire to spend that kind of time or money to devote to racing, they're doing just fine cranking out beautiful pleasure boats.

I'll second what others are saying as well, it depends on the driver and throttleman. You take the "race" conditions out of the equation (prop, ballast, turning) and who's faster? Who holds the vee bottom speed record?

Sorta like in NASCAR where teams will reuse a chassis for years only changing the outer skins.

Is it snowing out already.... :duel:

Call me crazy for thinking this way but if I new my competitor had a faster race boat and I knew what was making it go faster I would probably start there and try to make it faster going forward. We are talking one off race boats no production boats. I don't believe OL is out there just to have fun. Im sure winning a few would help cement there brand. I think its great that you are willing to try something new but you are going to need more than baby steps for any manufacture to get closer. This goes out to all manufactures not just OL most wont even take a shot at this point. I would try running the same power as the Fountain for starters. Maybe they do?

For years I too have watched these races, need to put going there on the bucket list, and wondered the same thing you mention here. How the F do these old race hogs still run the pants off the competition so often. Some of these boats have been rode hard, broke, patched back together and yet they go out there and run with some of todays best every time. I know I sound like a Fountain head, simple, cause I am. Long before I was lucky enough to own one I would watch them run on any Sunday and think to myself that there was something about these boats that separated them from the rest of the pack. I have owned two now and IMO these are some of the finest running hulls to ever hit the creek. I have had faster, more cushy, but none compare to them when it comes to just plain chitin and gettin across the water.

I have read thru this entire thread and I am glad you brought this up. My only hope here is that it continues as a conversation, not some pizzing contest.

So,,,,,,,,, Why do these tired old Beakers still run ???

Actually who gives a crap about racing anyway. Outerlimits is in business and has been building boats for the past years. Fountain has been out of business for a significant number of years and is only building C.C. boats with rumors of possibly building production boats.
So win on Sunday and sell on Monday does not apply.

that ol might be as fast or faster, not saying either way
only way to find out or prove it is to get in between instigator and cooper when they're not touching rubrails and play bumper boats till someone can get out front, or someone backs off.
if some sponsor was gonna flip the coin out to patch the holes, replace / rebuild whatever mechanical got thrashed and then repaint the sponsors name on it, and keep the checkbook open.
then what the he!! bang it off the rev limiters, bang it off channel markers, bang it off other boats whatever, just ring it out and win at all costs. (like those other 2)

the other boat in that class isn't hangin it out there either, but there out there racing.
it's another real looker too, some boats are to pretty to be out on a race course, my opinion

this is a good thread, i hope it stays interesting
that instigator boat is stored about 5 minutes from my house, they test on the river just north of me.
i passively know a sponsor, nice guy runs his own non boat related shop, says the bottom is a secret, everything i asked is a secret
but the engines are per spec rules and start pulling very hard at 2700 rpms. they get rebuilt quite a bit i'm told as does the boat in the off season.
big money commitment.

I would love to race, as I'm sure many others would too. Big $ required.

I am one of the Cig owners who also likes Fountain. You can't deny they are bad to the bone, fast, well built boats, much respect. And to be able to own an OL one day, that would be sweet! Love those too.

If no one gives a crap about racing why would OL even be out there. I will help you out with this one. Racing is a proving ground that lets you see how you compare to others with equal specs. Very few manufactures
even dare to play in this arena because IMO they don't want to look bad. IMO winning race manufactures do help sell boats. If Skater, MTI, OL, Fountain, Activator, Superboat didn't dominate on the race course they may never have gotten the exposure to be where they are today IMO

Because they like to have competition and a challenge of winning. Its fairly well known the guys on the Instigator team and the OL team are friends every day and on the race course compete for more than anything bragging rights. Most of us have buddies with that same spirit in us.

Power boat Racing may be somewhat of a proving ground, kinda sorta. (how many people are buying new boats with spec 750 HP motors? Stepped hull designs change drastically with the type of speeds they are designed to run. A stepped hull designed to run 120 mph will not work that well at 140 mph, step placement is important for the right leverage points on a boat to be stable, and fast. Put a set of 2000 hp motors in a boat designed to have 750 hp motors and its probably not going to work. Changing the attitude also plays a big role in how the steps work. Speed, drive heights, prop types, weight distribution will all play a role whether or not the steps are in the right spots.) A boat designed to run 1350's probably wont run as good as it should with 700's and vice versa. That is why Race boats mean something but don't, they are constantly taking time to find the sweet spot. Some setups work good in the rough, some work good in the flat very few are the best for everything. Instigator boat has had years to fine tune it and obviously has found a pretty sweet spot. People like to throw out it is a 12 year old boat. Well yes it was originally made 12 years ago, and they changed it, upgraded it for 12 years straight now. (taking zero away from them, in fact that is awesome that they keep on working at it) The OL 43 boat got made and probably had the bottom setup somewhere where they guessed it may be good. Not for the speeds of a 1350 boat, and not for the speed of a 700 boat but somewhere in the middle. They continue to make changes for the past 11 months to make it better for racing with those engines HP and speeds, acceleration on that syle course. Once again if you think your going to buy a new boat with the setup of any brand race boat, please reconsider your expectations.
I'm going to venture out on a limb and say very very few people ever went to a boat race and thought man that boat ran good I'm going to buy that brand boat and get THAT SAME BOAT. If someone did, I got alot of things to sell you.
Being in races does give exposure and name recognition for sure.
Why dont more play in the arena? Because its not a winning venture, you would spend way way more money on racing then then you ever would get back. If it was more lucrative more would race in a series, this is why the fleet of boats is so small, its people with disposable income, there not trying to make money doing boat racing.
Most people are buying boats because they saw one or rode in one and liked how it worked or looked or both, or there buddy told them it was a great boat, or it was affordable or many other reasons. Race course influence I would say is on the lower end of what influenced others to buy.

IMO opinion this is the old school real race course. lets see who can compete in this race! Still Going Great

Take nascar as a example. No one should go see a nascar race and say man that Chevrolet sured kicked but Sunday, I'm going to go buy one of them.
Why do teams like Dodge pull out of that series? They spend more money than they get back by a long shot.