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Old 10-29-2002, 06:18 PM
  #21
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What about those Sony Xplod amps, seem to have most watt/$ value, not sure about the quality per amp though.
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Old 10-29-2002, 07:55 PM
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Cool An amp is an amp...

Quote:
Originally posted by HyperBaja
What about those Sony Xplod amps, seem to have most watt/$ value, not sure about the quality per amp though.
...and a watt is a watt. An amplified signal is an amplified signal...most agree that the human ear cannot distinguish different amps of the same actual wattage...

However, quality comes into play on a couple points:

1. Internal components- Quality components will mean the amp will last longer (not self-destruct), and make the amp more efficient (less current draw) with less heat buildup.
2. Features- Do you need a crossover; external bass boost, or subsonic filter?
3. Ratings- The higher quality amps have an RMS rating equal to (or in some cases- less than) their actual output.

I think the ratings are most important. If you follow the car audio mags, the overrated amps are generally the ones with the cheaper internal components. If an amp says "3,000 watts" on the outside, but only has a 40 amp fuse, you know something is rotten in Denmark.

For example, let's say you've narrowed you search down to 3 class d amps- the JBL BP1200.1, the Sony XM 1600GD, or the Fosgate 1000BD from www.bsless.com

JBL BP1200.1- a 70%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,300 watts for $270

Sony XM1600GD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 900 watts for $246

Fosgate 1000BD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,100 watts for $470

The math is pretty easy to do....but it doesn't take into account whether you are doing it yourself, or paying a dealer (how much support you need). Remember, car audio is like boats- the dealer will most likely try to sell you what they carry.
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Old 10-29-2002, 10:21 PM
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Daren,
There are many ways to crossover your speakers. Most good amps have a built in 24 db/octave internal but if they dont you can simply add an F-mod that goes on your rca input or use an external crossover such as an AudioControl. The BAABS like high power like a Rockford Fosgate 750x 4 channel to run all mids. The MBQuart 3 way sounds awesome but is a paper cone designed for ultimate sound quality not the marine environment. Have a few brand new pairs left for $248.50. For marine MBQuart only offers two models and are both 6 1/2 inch.

Regarding amps, there are many factors to look at other than dollar per watt. Not to get way to technical but in addition to wattage you have current and the quality of sound output. A watt is not a watt as the full equation involves much more. In the same sense a boat is not a boat.

Regarding efficiency, current draw to output is just one measure. Class D amps were introduced three years ago to offer cheaper high power amps. It was coincidental that they drew less power using a chip rather than many hungry mosfet transistors. When power consumption is measured at low volumes what I found is that Class D amps actually draw more power than the common AB technology. That is why Rockford uses there proprietary bd technology. Another interesting factor is that cheap class d amps clip and weld speaker voicecoils hence ruining a good set of subs. Any amp can make noise but good sound and long term performance is another story.

As a dealer of about 30 different brands of home, car and marine sound systems, I can benefit from the sale of **** or shinola as a profit dollar is a profit dollar. But the true benefit comes from having a satisfied customer and ultimately people can buy whatever they choose to believe is best for them but those that buy what they really need later don't have to backtrack to cover the defficiencies of the system design.

A Sony amp is ok or a JBL is ok and many people are satisfied with even more basic brands that I sell but there is no comparison to the many better choices. Is there a difference is a 450 horsepower small block and a 450 horsepower big block?
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Old 10-30-2002, 12:07 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Buzz
Regarding amps, there are many factors to look at other than dollar per watt. Not to get way to technical but in addition to wattage you have current and the quality of sound output. A watt is not a watt as the full equation involves much more.
Andy, could you please explain the "quality of sound output"?

Since you are in the industry, you must be familiar with Richard Clark's (Car Sound and Performance Editor) $10,000 amp challenge (Where he compares all classes of amps, and challenges the manufacturer and/or dealers to tell the difference)?

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Buzz
That is why Rockford uses there proprietary bd technology.
What is this proprietary technology? I am a little confused.

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Buzz
Another interesting factor is that cheap class d amps clip and weld speaker voicecoils hence ruining a good set of subs.
Andy, this is an interesting statement. Since clipping is nothing more than a distorted signal, I am curious to know how clipping can "weld a voice coil". Are you talking about overdriving a speaker?

I myself was once in the industry, but chose to take a different path. Like good engine builders, I also utilized tried and true recipes...but I am no longer limited by sales goals.

I have nothing against Fosgate, they make decent stuff. They run hot, but they are decent. It's been my experience that dealers continue to push Fosgate...probably because Fosgate doesn't support internet retailers (read that as "price competition"). Has Fosgate got some competition for value? You bet. Just out of curiousity, how much do you sell the 1000BD for?

As in any purchase, the informed consumer will have the advantage. Would you go into an engine builder and lay down your hard-earned cash without checking the parts out?

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Buzz
In the same sense a boat is not a boat.
Yes, and just as some boat manufacureres make false marketing claims to boost their product in the market, so do audio manufacturers...eventually, the sales myths, voodoo and urban legends will sort themselves out from fact.

Last edited by Havasu Hangin; 10-30-2002 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 10-30-2002, 01:37 AM
  #25
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some of the things i found wrong in this post

1. Internal components- Quality components will mean the amp will last longer (not self-destruct), and make the amp more efficient (less current draw) with less heat buildup.


real life
=better components will actually make the amp less efficient(more current draw) and buildup more heat

...and a watt is a watt. An amplified signal is an amplified signal...most agree that the human ear cannot distinguish different amps of the same actual wattage


real life=
the human ear can distinguish but not what most people listen for, the main thing you notice different is the phase because the components do not have high tolerance.


JBL BP1200.1- a 70%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,300 watts for $270

Sony XM1600GD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 900 watts for $246

Fosgate 1000BD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,100 watts for $470


real life=
are you trying to tell me that the jbl puts out 200 more watts for $200 less? (well i have a bravo that can handle more power than a #6 i will sell it for 50k how many do you want)


Regarding efficiency, current draw to output is just one measure. Class D amps were introduced three years ago to offer cheaper high power amps. It was coincidental that they drew less power using a chip rather than many hungry mosfet transistors. When power consumption is measured at low volumes what I found is that Class D amps actually draw more power than the common AB technology


real life=
was the three years ago when you started in car audio or when you think the class d was introduced? I had a class d ten years ago
class d draws less at any power level than ab


That is why Rockford uses there proprietary bd technology

real life=same stuff different name

. Another interesting factor is that cheap class d amps clip and weld speaker voicecoils hence ruining a good set of subs.

real life= technically a class d signal is a clip cheap or not, the person "welds the coil" not the amp
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 08:26 AM
  #26
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Default NOW WE HAVE TO MANY EXPERTS OF AUDIO ON HEAR

Now this is getting interesting with all these audio guys on the board. I look at systems in a VERY different way perhaps then some of you, that being what is important to the CUSTOMER. Watts are not Watts as has been stated before. Was the amp rated at a total harmonic distorsion of X or Y, was it rated at 12 volts or 14.4, Does it have a Regulated or Non regulated power supply. If all amps are the same was the case then whey do peoples eyes light up when they sit down in my Car and listen to the Zapco amp and CD Technology subs and speakers? It does not sound so good when I have any other amp in there and I have tried a few (soundstream, rockford, Orion, Audio Art, and more) That amp at 25 watts X 4 is $1600 bucks!!!! It has variable noise gates and crossover and if VERY quite. There are a lot of things that make a better amp sound better, Damping factor for one.
Can a person hear the difference btwn a high end system and a low end one? I am willing to bet that EVERY person on this board can hear the difference. I actually brought two people with me to CES to run a test like this and set them btwn different systems. They ranged from the "normal" system of aproximatly 30,000 to the unreal system at 500-1,000,000 bucks. They with out me explaining anything could pick up on the differences btwn every system.
Now back to boats. On a boat you have a totally different environment then a home and you have to say as the customer what is important. IMHO you can not get a boat to EVER sound as good as a house due to the environment. Sound floor of equipment and what not do not really matter. Why would I put a Zapco amp in a boat? I never would it is waisted money. Andy and I (I hope I am not out of line speaking for him) recommend amps like Rockford due to the success we have had. They sound good with GOBBS of power to make them play loud. They are also a great bang for your buck amp. Lets face it most guys with boat systems want LOUD. You are not sitting on your boat thinking about imagine and sound stage. You are thinking look at the tits on that chick and boy would it be fun to bang her.
When it all comes down to it however the system is only as good as it's installation. All speakers should be through bolted with washers and nylock nuts. Location of speakers will make and break a system. Trial and error is a way to go but in a boat Experience in knowing what is good is the best thing to help. Pick your installer very carefully. Look for the quality of their install and attention to detail. Do the wires get wire tied down so that they will not move. Are they using stainless cusion clamps to hold everything together. If you are in a salt environment DO NOT use Car Audio Wire, it will only corrode in a short time and leave you with problems. Hope this all helps out.

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Last edited by Audiofn; 10-30-2002 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 10-30-2002, 09:44 AM
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AUDIOFN: very right I agree with you completely.

APACHE77: a watt is a watt on the level of current draw,true. statement.by means of output capability there are different ways of rating wattage witch makes it untrue. and the jbl 1300 watt amp for example is rated @ 1/4 ohm, 14.4 volts for 30 seconds. the truth of it is most of those cheap amps even though rated at that do not have true 1/4 ohm capability for any extended period of time and your boat or car will seldome deliver 14.4 volts to the amp. by the way the must common reason for welding speaker voice coils is from using an underpowered amp. the amp overdrives to satisfy the speaker and the ac voltage on the final stage of the amp spikes.
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Old 10-30-2002, 10:27 AM
  #28
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Audio you made a couple points on speaker placement and mounting. How much, if any, effect on sound quality is there if the back side of the speaker is mounted in an open enviroment. For example. Is there much difference if a speaker is mounted to a sheet of plywood with no box around the back of the speaker. Or if the back of the speaker is completely enclosed in a box, or behind a trim piece.

Reason I mention this is, the mounting location I currently have my speakers in is open at the bottom. They are mounted in the trim along the gunwale. Its open at the bottom. I can reach up from underneith to get to the back of the speaker.

Subs are mounted in boxes specificaly designed for their particular specs. Can and do full range speakers benifit from reflex, or ported enclosures.

I ask this because its probably good mounting advice for everyone to hear.
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 10:42 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
real life
=better components will actually make the amp less efficient(more current draw) and buildup more heat..
I was under the impression that heat buildup is a byproduct of resistance. This is taught in EE 101. Therefore, your amp has to draw more current to generate the heat, instaed of producing watts.

For example, class d are much more efficient (at less than 300 Hz), and run much cooler. Cooler = more efficient.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
real life=
the human ear can distinguish but not what most people listen for, the main thing you notice different is the phase because the components do not have high tolerance...
High tolorance? Human ear can distinguish? Hmmm...sounds like more "marketing" info. Most amps are tested using a sine wave, and the noise appears on a scope. Scientific fact. I guess if an amp manufacturer needs to differentiate themselves, they can say it "sounds better" because it's all subjective.

But not based on science.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
real life=
are you trying to tell me that the jbl puts out 200 more watts for $200 less?
Yes.

The audio mags are brutally honest when it comes to actual output. Those numbers are from the bench tests. A power source, a sine wave, and a resistive load tell the tale.

It's a very easy decision, when you remove the "it sounds better" voodoo. A watt is a watt.

However, the Fosgate has a subsonic filter, and a remote bass gain, so if you want to pay $200 for those features, go for it.

Like JUST ONCE pointed out, another thing to consider is which amp will last longer (quality components). IMHO, the JBL (Harmon Kardon) is top quality.

Something I found kina funny is the specs from the Sony. On the Sony Website, the top spec is "1,200 watts max power (into 2 ohms)"...yet a couple lines down it lists "600 Watts x 1 into 2 Ohms". Why does it say "1,200 watts" right on the amp, and even by Sony's own specs, a maximum output of 1,000 watts?

1,200 watts must be th "If Lightning Strikes" measurement (or running 16 volt batteries)...

How many people here would buy a 1,200 HP engine, and then be OK with it when they found out it put out 900 HP? For some reason, dealers keep pushing Sony...

BTW, when that amp was bench tested, it put out less than 1,000 watts.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
real life= technically a class d signal is a clip cheap or not, the person "welds the coil" not the amp
I couldn't agree more. The motor in a driver is just that. Like a any motor, heat is it's enemy. Overdriving a speaker and heating the voice coil is the easiest way to fry it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Audiofn
When it all comes down to it however the system is only as good as it's installation.
Once again I agree with Audiofn (did I just say that? ). Installation and dealer support is very important, unless you are a DIY'er. If you are the kind of guy who puts down $10K to a dealer for a system, and you don't care about the components, don't read my posts.

However, if you care about what goes in your boat, don't listen to just me, educate yourself.

BTW, the JBL amp was bench tested by CSR at 13.8 volts into a 2 ohm resistive load at 1,378 watts...that's what is known as "underrated"...most Fosgate birth sheets will tell you a similar story...

Man, I gotta beg you guys to take money?

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Old 10-30-2002, 10:58 AM
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a mid range speaker does not need the pressure load like a sub because it is not moving as much air.a mid range uses higher frequency therefore less speaker travel. they do make free air subs that can be mounted without a box but you will not get nearly the quality or punch out of the speaker. the only time i've ever seen a freeair work well is with the front of the speaker faceloaded. On a boat as you guys said its a totally different ballgame there is no enclosure for the tones to reflect and mature thats why for base and low notes sometimes a tuned band pass can sound good even though in most applicartions they arent as faverable as an isobaric box. being loaded on both sides and then externally ported mounting location is easier. $.02
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