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Old 10-30-2002, 12:12 PM
  #41
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Originally posted by apache77
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In amplifiers the higher quality parts are over-built and there will be more parts, which is what makes them less eff. and more heat.
Overbuilt? More parts? Like what?

So now you're saying that heat = less efficient? I'm going to pay extra money for heat?

Better not tell Audiofn...I bet his Zapco stuff runs pretty cool...that stuff must be inexpensive. It's been my experience that the quality stuff can handle lower ohm loads...maybe that's what you meant.

The garbage I used in the past got really hot...and left this earth really quick. The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long...not to mention the solder...

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
i was talking about phase through the amp, when you put an imput signal in one end the output signal goes through alot of stuff and the tol. in that stuff will make the output phase different for each side.
What stuff?

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
the audio mags are not brutally honest, it depends on how they decide to test the amp on a given day. and which manu. gave them money to test it.
Well, the one thing I've come to appreciate over the past 20 years is that the car audio mags are much more neutral than the boat mags. Unlike boating, there are litterally dozens of mags, sites, and forums for rating equipment. The advertising dollars don't seem to drive the reviews, because if they did, the mag would be immediatley discredited by the audiophiles. The market is much more saturated.

However, to your point, who can you trust? The mags? The manufacturers? The dealers? Unless you have your own test equipment, I'd stick to the mags. Also, there is ALOT of consumer reviews out there...if you want to look.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
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the amp can "spike" over its rated, because it is not rated at the highest rail voltage. those signals are not the same to the speaker the clipped signal will generate more heat, take the energy of the clip and the energy of the sine and tell me the speaker will not get hotter
A clipped signal cannot generate more heat to the speaker...only overexcursion can, which is usually caused by overdriving (past the speaker's rating). Overexcursion causes heat, which kills voice coils.

Once again, the speaker does not care about the signal...it's only trying to reproduce it, whether it be noise or music. If you believe that clipping will exceed an amps rating (or rail voltage), then why do we rate amps? An given amp drawing x amperes can only produce x watts...no more. As a matter of fact, as the ESR value increases, it will produce less watts.

Distortion doesn't kill speakers...people kill speakers...

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77

ee101 where did you go to school? if you are out of the business what do you do now? just wondering.
I have been out of car audio for 4years. wish i had never left, maybe i will get back into it.
I am not an EE, nor do I claim to be. I was an engineering major (at CSUF) who made a turn into business...I am now VP of Sales & Marketing for a small technology company.

Although I left the business, I still try to keep up on the latest trends (I am a certified "audio junkie"). There have been many myths disspelled over the past few years that were "the bible" when I was involved...such as running RCAs and power wires together (accepted now...no-no back then).

What will be the next myths disspelled?

You guys spend alot of time here...so I encourage you to ask your questions on Richard's audio forums (he moderates)...he is a very "to the point" guy...he is the equivilant to Arnow in boating...a legend...controversial, but a legend. He pioneered many audio innovations since the 70's.

The guys on his boards are mostly EE's, owners, competitors, and audiophiles. However, I feel old over there...
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Old 10-30-2002, 12:37 PM
  #42
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orig. quoted by Havasu Hangin:
A clipped signal cannot generate more heat to the speaker...only overexcursion can, which is usually caused by overdriving (past the speaker's rating). Overexcursion causes heat, which kills voice coils.


Any time the wave get to large the wave clips this creates constant output "dc voltage" speaker coil connot collapse, stays at full throw, coil cannot cycle, coil gets hot, welds. If I'm wrong please do explain.
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Old 10-30-2002, 12:41 PM
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well i did not post that you said anything wrong on your first post because i could tell you knew some stuff and i did not want to rain on anyones parade, but now i will have to.

Better not tell Audiofn...I bet his Zapco stuff runs pretty cool...that stuff must be inexpensive. It's been my experience that the quality stuff can handle lower ohm loads...maybe that's what you meant.

answer=
zapco stuff runs hot because of the better parts, and you do not have much experience if you think quality stuff can handle lower loads.

Well, the one thing I've come to appreciate over the past 20 years is that the car audio mags are much more neutral than the boat mags. Unlike boating, there are litterally dozens of mags, sites, and forums for rating equipment. The advertising dollars don't seem to drive the reviews, because if they did, the mag would be immediatley discredited by the audiophiles. The market is much more saturated.

answer=
i have been at the place they tested a amp for a mag and the editor ask if they got to keep the amp and the manu. told them no to send it back and the rating went down 30% from the test


A clipped signal cannot generate more heat to the speaker...only overexcursion can, which is usually caused by overdriving (past the speaker's rating). Overexcursion causes heat, which kills voice coils.


answer=
that is what let me know that you do not know what you are talking about, dont even ask richards about what you just said there because he would have a heart attack from laughing

Once again, the speaker does not care about the signal...it's only trying to reproduce it, whether it be noise or music. If you believe that clipping will exceed an amps rating (or rail voltage), then why do we rate amps? An given amp drawing x amperes can only produce x watts...no more. As a matter of fact, as the ESR value increases, it will produce less watts.

answer =
we rate amps at a given distortion (clip) it is not the max the amp will do.

such as running RCAs and power wires together (accepted now...no-no back then).

answer=
i zip tied my rca to my power for about eleven years now.

You guys spend alot of time here...so I encourage you to ask your questions on Richard's audio forums (he moderates)...he is a very "to the point" guy...he is the equivilant to Arnow in boating...a legend...controversial, but a legend. He pioneered many audio innovations since the 70's.


answer=
richard was my inspiration when i started and he is good for the industry, but do not believe everything you hear. ask him the last time he was in school for new technology, twenty years ago?
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 12:44 PM
  #44
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ps anything i wrote on here you can ask the smartest person in that industry, and they will tell you that nothing i have posted is wrong.
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 12:45 PM
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what do you mean coil collapse?
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
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zapco stuff runs hot because of the better parts, and you do not have much experience if you think quality stuff can handle lower loads.
You're right...I do not have much experience. Otherwise, I would not have loaded our Orion or HiFonics down to 1/2 ohm in our competition vehicles...boy, am I an idiot. I should have kept it at 4 ohms.

In fact, I should go re-configure my sub wiring, it's at 1 ohm right now...better make it 8 ohms.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
i have been at the place they tested a amp for a mag and the editor ask if they got to keep the amp and the manu. told them no to send it back and the rating went down 30% from the test.
Well, congratulations. Better rely on your test equipment at home. I don't have any so I'll continue to be ignorant and rely on tests, forums and reviews.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
that is what let me know that you do not know what you are talking about, dont even ask richards about what you just said there because he would have a heart attack from laughing
Well, I'm sorry if I gave anyone a heart attack. You're right...a clipped signal will blow speakers. Feel better now?

What grade are we in?

How can a clipped signal generate heat in the speaker? The amp cannot do that, only the voice coil can generate heat in the speaker. Maybe you misunderstood...unless you are telling me that when the amp clips, heat travels from the amp, up the speaker wire, to the speaker?

Please don't have a heart attack.

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
i zip tied my rca to my power for about eleven years now.
Congratulations on using zip-ties...did you read the instructions first?

Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
richard was my inspiration when i started and he is good for the industry, but do not believe everything you hear. ask him the last time he was in school for new technology, twenty years ago?
Well, like I said, there are alot of knowledgable people on his forums...maybe you'd better stay here.

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Originally posted by LIVING LOUD
WARNING: Boat stereo can be HIGH MAINTENANCE and always breaks on SATURDAY mornings.
Finally...I would be hard pressed to find a truer statement.
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:28 PM
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You're right...I do not have much experience. Otherwise, I would not have loaded our Orion or HiFonics down to 1/2 ohm in our competition vehicles...boy, am I an idiot. I should have kept it at 4 ohms.


any amp will play at any impedence you just have to change a couple of parts, you could have bought an orion or hifonics amp that would have put out the same power at 4 ohms that yours did at 1/2 ohm, the manufactures make the different models to make it easier to wire for different situations.
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:32 PM
  #48
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(quote)How can a clipped signal generate heat in the speaker? The amp cannot do that, only the voice coil can generate heat in the speaker. Maybe you misunderstood...unless you are telling me that when the amp clips, heat travels from the amp, up the speaker wire, to the speaker?

answer=
the amp clipping will generate more heat in the voice coil


what competition vehicle, what class what did it do?
 
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by JUST ONCE
Any time the wave get to large the wave clips this creates constant output "dc voltage" speaker coil connot collapse, stays at full throw, coil cannot cycle, coil gets hot, welds. If I'm wrong please do explain.
I'm sorry, JUST ONCE...I missed this question...

I think you are talking about the sine wave vs the square wave.
If so, we are saying the same thing in a different way. A square wave will produce 200% of the amps output (or max rating), with a sine wave producing 100%. With music the duty cycle at full power is less than 10% and rarely more than 30% if it is clipped. Is 30% enough to melt a speaker?

Once again, though, it comes down to speaker ratings, and the thermal limits of the speaker. Most speakers are rated for music, not sine waves, and can be overdriven and melted.

However, IMHO, it is not the distortion or clipping that kills the speaker, it is the speaker being driven past than it's thermal design.
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Old 10-30-2002, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by apache77
answer=
the amp clipping will generate more heat in the voice coil
We are saying the same thing...

How about this statement:

"A clipped signal will cause the voice coil to generate more heat"
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