Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Yeah,OK :evilb: :D

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Exactly..thats what I thought too.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

if you guys keep this up, i will have to break out the big dog and smack you all down a notch or two..... :cool:

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Seems TMP got some good advertising out of this thread. :) Maybe the competitors should bring some some better smack the next time :drink: :evilb:

I commend TMP for putting up with the flack here and I hope they succeed at their goals. Being the "new kid on the block" isn't easy and this definately is a rough crowd here.

Point of interest: I was the "new kid on the block" engine builder at a local circle track. It seemed whatever class I put an engine in, suddenly the team would set records and win races. It pissed off the "old timers". One class was really sad as it turned into my group of engines in the lead pack, and everyone else fighting behind that. I had engine's torn down at EVERY race by protest, nothing ever found illegal :D

That is how my name became known as RichardCranium... to the competitors :D

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

So is Vinny going to bring his boat to Sarasota, and Will it have new power.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Nobody,
The SC's that Racecrafters used are Whipple's so I'm not really sure what your refering to on that statement. We own the rights, we did finally assembly, we were the instrumental force in developing the compressor and getting it to the market. We didn't design the rotor profile, that was left to Svenska Rotor Maskiner, the world leaders in screw compressor technology, but those are Whipple Charger's. We had two versions, A980 and R980. That is 9.8 Liters, is that big enough?

As for Mercury not calling their SC's Whipples, why would they, were competition? Lysholm is mainly in business because of our hard work, drive to succeed and innovative ideas. We paid for the development of every compressor including the 3.3L, we utilize 95% of their sales and are instrumental in getting the compressors to a level worthy of the tough vigors of the marine envoirnment. If anybody doesn't see the similarities with Mercury Racing's lineup vs. ours should have their eyes examined. The OEM's approach some things different, but there are strong similarities.

The marine version of the PSI is smaller than our 3.3L quad rotor. The smaller SC's have far tighter rotor tolerances, have 50 years of superior rotor technology and have superior efficiency levels. The PSI rotor design is an out of patent design from the late 50's and does not compare to the later generation "D" profiles for size vs. flow vs. efficiency.

Theres no doubt a larger compressor could serve a purpose in the marine envoirnment and maybe you'll see something in the near future, for the time being, the likes of Sterling Performance have found tremendous success with the 3.3L quad rotor vs. previous PSI equipped engines and we've had tremendous success with our 3.3 Liter.

As for me treading uncharted territories, I'm not sure who you are or how you may know my expertise, but I can hold my own in the field of forced induction and power. I also don't work with any one person or company, I support our product, simple as that. If somebody with our product wants to hear my thoughts on tuning, EFI controllers, camshaft or head selection, compression, etc. then I will offer my thoughts. I've been blessed with the oppurtunity to listen, learn and interact with some incredibly great minds, many far outside the marine industry and some in. With my fathers drive to understand why something happens and how, I've been lucky to gain invaluable knowledge and learn at an accelerated pace.

As for efficiencies, the turbo offers the highest peak efficiency of any supercharger. The screw compressor and centrifugal are nearly identical in peak efficiency. But very few motors run at peak efficiency. The screw compressor offers the highest possible efficiency through a useable rpm range and therefore it can clearly be called the most efficient supercharger to date. Plot a power curve of identical motors with the screw, roots, centrifugal and turbo and as long as all were sized properly, the screw compressor will have the highest average power.

Thanks,
Dustin

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

JCPERF,
To let you know, quite a few people have made over 1800hp on gasoline. The question is how long a motor with that type of temp and energy can live. Racecrafters made over 2000hp with 104 octane on his with our A980! Most do it with higher octane levels, typically 118+. Torco made some special race fuel that was rated at 122 octane a few years back for one of the race teams we were involved with. At that time, about 6 years ago, they had a 498ci motor with 20lbs of boost making 1600HP @ 7000rpm. Heads, superchargers, cams, etc. have all gotten better now not to forget to mention cubic inch.

I've seen a few motors make 1600hp on 116 octane, some I felt were set to die and some were what I felt still somewhat safe. 1800 is certainly another level that is difficult to reach, but it's certainly been done by more than one with screw compressors and turbos! Hell, my friend use to race for Toyota and they had their 4 cylinder motor producing 1600hp on gasoline (surely not a "on-the-shelf" gasoline) during the IMSA days, only took 75lbs of boost!!!! But they dominated racing and wiped out the class, one year winning 20 of 21 races.

Thanks,
Dustin

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

JC, I thought Lab did Vinny's motors? Tom

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

did somebody say free drinks :eek: :eek: :D :D

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Dustin,
I believe there is someone you may want to talk to about his process in aluminum transformation. The gentlemans name is Kirk Jager, he has developed a process to transform aluminum into a material he refers to as alumni. It's properties in both thermal expansion rate and lubricity have led to some interesting testing and real life use, namely .0005" tolerance rod to journal clearance in NHRA Pro Stock. This while running oil pressure that you would see in your everyday car. His alumi connecting rods were outlawed in NHRA, rod weight was 415gms in Pro Stock. The Dept. of Energy in Oakridge, TN is working with him to develop lighter parts for the OEMs for better fuel effiecient vehicles.

His next interest is to use the process to increase the efficiency in blowers. I know his conversation would not be a waste of time for you. In reading your post you are someone who listens, all important in this industry of automotive performance.

If you are interested e-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 423 854 0007.

Thanks,

Chris Straub
Stef's Performance Product
B&B Performance

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

What Carl said!!!!!!!!!!
:p

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

JC Poof and no one, how does it feel to get your azz handed to you by Dustin Whipple? That was a big ole glass of "shut up juice" you were just served. Were you able to drink all of that? I am sure the river of Denial will lead you to thinking that you still know more than everyone else.....and even funnier.....that you represent the interests and opinions of the rest of the board. I want to thank you for all of your self seeking, self serving, self promoting BS. You have further solidified my decision on who I get my motors from. This has been the biggest show of somebody getting their teeth kicked in and not even realizing it that I have ever seen....LMFAO! To think......all of these was free......I would have paid good money to see this debate in person.......

Peace Out!
Thunderusone!

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Holy moly!!! THAT was a lot of reading... and interesting at that. I have no dogs in this fight, no horses in this race and so on, but I feel compelled to chime in. I talked with "TMPRacing" at the Clevelander for a while Thursday night of the Miami show, and stopped by the booth as well. I have been following them for about a year or so and I think that the biggest problem people have with them is that they look at engine building differently, period! If you call Coke and ask them for their secret formula, and they tell you - sorry it's a secret - will you be pissed at them too!? I can't blame Eddie & Steve for keeping some of their info to themselves, they have a ton of time and effort into this business, trade secrets are just that - secret. There are a lot of good engine builders out there, they just happen to be one more, with an edge. I don't know everything about building engines, but as someone else said earlier, I know enough to get into trouble!! :D They are building a reputation and they are building - what they and others feel - is a great product, how can you fault them for that? I asked Eddie about 100 questions that night, and he was gracious enough to answer everyone of them, no BS, no hesitation! Whenever someone has a good thing on here, they get called out and slammed without just cause, kind of a downer. I would NOT - for a second - think twice about calling TMP up tomorrow and ordering a set of their motors for a new boat, (if I was currently in the market). Jeff has had great luck and is a prime example of a return customer, if his first set of motors sucked I imagine he'd be going elsewhere 'bout now!? Just because TMP is having success, it has to be assumed that they are selling snake oil and blowing smoke up everyones a$$!? I am just throwing in my .02 and feel that these guys are the next wave (pardon the pun) in performance marine motors. They look at it from a different perspective, they take their time, do their homework and aren't afraid to try new things. I for one am looking forward to what they will be showcasing this summer... keep up the good work guys!! :cool: :)

Ok, have to jump on a plane - be back in the am.

Cheers!

-Mark-

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I'm sure glad you did not list me in the top of your post because I am pretty sure my motors make more hp then anything dustin has built to date. Does that mean I know more then him, no. But I am not the motor builder. Do I think my motor builder would have his ass handed to him by dustin, probably so on whipple part numbers and whipple installs but not on engine theory, or how to make alot of hp.

Tyson

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I started reading threads on offshore only before I ever owned a boat and the threads like this even though they sound like a bunch of guys seeing who has a bigger piston, have taught me alot and I would definately not have made it this far without reading these things, I would probably have a 23' bayliner with a 350 mag ( sorry to all the people that have those)

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Well put Tyson, Your in the audio business and when you posted your miami pics it gave me a chance to poke around on your site. i'm quite sure that you see the same thing in stereo competition, whenever you did something that set a record, or set the bar higher you have other that doubt it. I know I see it in my business as well, being one of the best in the country, people either want the reciepe to my success or will slam my work, but as TMP, Whipple, yourself and others, we still are booked solid and continue to offer our quality service and products. I learn everyday, even though I am a success in my business, I consistantly look for ways to improve my products and expand my business. forums can be tricky, as many people are brave behind a keyboard. As I had posted earlier, no one was complaining about TMP's motors and service, had customers posted bad experiances then I'm sure the shoe would be on the other foot....Rob

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

well this thread just keeps getting better and better

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Tyson,
You should probably get to know my resume a bit better before you comment on what I know. Superchargers are my life, performance is my passion. I've never claimed to be an engine builder and at this point in my life, I don't want to be but I've certainly been part of some interesting projects that have made tremendous power levels and I know a thing or two about combustion theory, cam design, head design, etc. I work with emissions equipped vehicles everyday that have to meet SULEV emissions and you have to know a thing or two regarding internal combustion engines to make that work.

The first thing I know is that I need a screw compressor over a roots, yet most engine builders today still don't know that common fact so not everybody knows everything.

Thanks,
Dustin

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

As I said, it's "how long" that really begs the question. Racecrafters motors did last in most circumstances but they kept running into little problems here and there, never having piston, rod, crank problems. That was one person really taking things to extreme, and it did work, I was very impressed. I have no doubt the knowledge gained is nearly invaluable (at least to the ones that didn't pay the bill :D ).

I'm not dynoing any of these particular motors so I don't get to stress test any of these motors but typically we run our motors between 5-10 minutes on the dyno and certainly in the boat before they're ready for marketplace. I only do quick 10 second swept test for our beginning shake down or to get a baseline calibration, after that, all our testing is done at steady state. Not sure what the fuel blend has to do with making the power, it took a certain fuel to get to a certain power, whether they used more tolulene to increase octane, benzene or propolyne oxide, its up to the chemical engineers. As I said, I've seen it done, didn't say it lasted 10 seasons.

The fact of the matter is that those who always say something is impossible can always settle for whats known but can struggle to move forward. F1 engineers spend countless hours and millions of dollars for 1-2hp. Nobody there says thats it, we can't turn this motor 21,650rpm, only 21,640rpm. The innovators run it to 22,000 with all the possible readings available, then go back to the drawing board and work on fixing or limiting the limitation. Prior to FIA limiting the fuel suppliers of F1, some of their "gasoline" mixes were so extravagent that they had over 5000 different ingrediants and they certainly made a huge difference in power. They wouldn't live on C116 or Trick 110, does that somehow change the fact that they were making 2000hp?

As I said, I'm not in the motor business, we sale to Sterling, Pfaff, Eickert, Teague, etc. and everybody is always striving for more, the beauty of competition.

Thanks,
Dustin

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I told myself to stay off this thread, but Dustin's obviously calling me out.

When you say you did the final assembly on the 9.8s. your saying YOU built them. How many 9.8s did you sell or build?

If you own the rights why don't you still sell them? How does Racecrafters get away with not calling them whipples?
I don't know so please explain. Does Autorotor still build your blowers or do you build your blowers?

I agree that the smaller Lysholm blowers are more eff. But when you say your 3.3 blowers make a lot of power you still have 2 blowers not 1. So your not comparing apples to apples. Although this system does yield tremendous gains over roots blowers and fits in very tight places you still have 2 blowers. I can take 2 M5 prochargers and put them on the same motor the 3.3s were on and I promise I'll make more power. Why, because I moved more air. The size and eff. of the supercharger are directly related to HP potential.

As far as Mercury goes, if you own all the rights and are the sole reason Lysholm exists, then they must pay you a fortune in royalties. And yes your blower systems are different, you spray your fuel before the blower and Mercury sprays their fuel in the intake port. Who's right who knows. I wouldn't know unless I could test this both ways.

As far as exploring uncharted territory, I don't recall you being in any pictures or videos of a 1800 HP dyno pull with your 3.3s by your side.
I'm pretty sure your good at tuning EFI's YOU BETTER BE!

As far as who knows more about supercharged engines, I've never talked to you before. I have no clue what you know, but maybe you can help me out-----------------
What do my I/E ratios need to be in a supercharged app.(why)
Does the exhaust runner need to be bigger (why)
What lobe sep. angle does my cam need to be (why)
Does the speed of the air in the intake runner increase with a blower (why)
Answer these simple questions, you ought to know these by heart.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I don't remember anyone else trying to make this personal.
I hope your not either!

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Nobody, yeah, we actually did the final assembly, why in the world would I lie about such a thing? I will give you a bit of info so you can get your facts straghit. Calling you out? Are you 2 or 5 years old? It's called facts, to claim to be an expert if you don't know what your talking about.

Did I assemble them? Not all of them, but I certainly did my fair share. THere was a team of 4 of us that once recertified over 100 R980's in 1 week. Just rebuilt one last week.
How many did we sale, 300 brand new units and some are still going today!
We rebuilt and or SFI recertified over 2000 (use to have to have SFI approval every year) over the years.
Why don't we build them anymore? THere was no need for them after NHRA's rule makers allowed PSI to continue to make changes after the "blower freeze" was made. We followed the rules, others did not. We also had to SFI spin test them every 2 years which cost $20,000 in order to be able to recertify the used SC's. This was pointless since we were out of the business. Once the rules were made, ours sales dropped instantly. Market fell out. We knew they would be needed in the future, but at the time, most of you guys were arguing about who had the best 1471 even though the screw compressor was setting records in every class it was allowed.
Why are we not building them now? Who says were not working on it? Were working on a bunch of new things, I'll leave it at that. The market wasn't ready for the 980's, now they are just getting there and there very expensive SC's, making 5-10 really doesn't make good business since. We have to build 25 at a time and they will still run over $8000. At this point, I would rather sale a couple of thousand mustang kits or 500HP's. I'm not sure how big of a market you think there is for such a supercharger, but it's no where near the smaller SC's.

How does racecrafters get away without calling them Whipples? How can I dictate what a consumer does with his property? Can you buy a Ford and take the logo off or will the Ford Police come arrest you, fine you and make you reinstall the logo? After all, it's a Ford?

Does Autorotor still make superchargers for us? No, it's actually Lysholm Technologies who cuts the rotors. We haven't used Autorotors since 1995.

As for your 2 blower theory, you need to do some research. Size does not equal efficiency and airflow can only give you a therotical power level. Put two M5's and you'll turn them so slow that the efficiency will be off the charts and not in a good way. Run the airflow up and sure, they may make more power if the engine can withstand it, point is what? It doesn't matter if you used 8 superchargers, if you flow a given amount of airflow more efficiently, than you have the ability to make more power or better yet, waste less energy operating the SC. So the point is, the dual 3.3 or Quad Rotor can generate cooler air more efficiently than the marine PSI at all power levels below 1600HP. Put a A980 on a 350 Mag and run 6lbs of boost, sorry, won't work really well. Instead of wasting the power robbed from the M5's why wouldn't you use turbos and get back all that power loss?

As for Mercury, I won't give you that type of information, but we own the rights to anything less than 5000 units per year, per application, pretty basic, have a 8 year contract. Also, not sure how many motors you think MR makes a year, but with that qty, nobody's getting rich. We sale approx. 12 times more SC's then they will. As for fuel both ways, I can tell you, as could the engineers who tested it at MR. It makes more power, both low end torque and top end HP. The best system is a blend and that depends on the amount of fuel, cylinder head design, etc. but running fuel through the SC under boost makes more power. It's a cooling median, gets prepared for better atomization and seals the rotor to casing tolerances for higher efficiency levels. The most efficient compressor is an oil flooded screw compressor because they use the oil as the sealing agent between the casing and rotors. THe final designs were with port injection only, but not for power reasons.

As for dyno pulls, I've been around 3000hp motors and plenty of top fuel motors at the track, not sure if you know, but I've been friends with Gary Scelzi ever since I was a little kid and that guy named Alan Johnson. My father owned a funny car called the "revelloution" with then driver Ed "the Ace" McCulloch, maybe you've heard of it? Or maybe you've heard of my grandfather, he had the first top fuel hydro to break 200mph, called Mr. Ed. So I've been around some pretty wild motors and I'm not even touching the TRD IMSA motors, TRD CART motors or anything of the sorts. I've been around racing my entire life and I didn't just go to the tracks, I got to work on cars, evaluate data, work with crew chiefs with our air fuel meters, R980 and A980, etc. I don't need to have a video showing my credibility, I'm brave enough to actually post my name.

I feel I do ok at EFI but then again my Dell laptop is missing its logo so they've been looking for me, they said I can't go around telling everybody it's a laptop, it has to be a Dell laptop. What am I going to do?

Not sure why your quizzing me, this is not a debate, as I said, I support our customers, after all, your nobody, right? Want answers to your questions, buy a supercharger that this information is applicable.

Dustin

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...m572/jeeze.jpg

NOBODY asked: I don't remember Dustin EVER saying he was/is a professional engine builder. Those ridiculous questions have tarnished my picture of you.

Let's do this, why don't YOU answer the questions and I'll bring the smack this time. :D :evilb:

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Preliminary smack :D ... It's comedy hour at OSO :evilb:




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...anium572/1.gif

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I can not wait for JC to get here......Thunderuos Chicken you are still talking S H I T....This is going to get very good with alot of education spelled out.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Birdman, are you and JC going to (Learn) me with your higher education? Looks like you have already been sent to school several times. Since you haven't absorbed any of it.......Bring it on! I think one of you said earlier "welcome to the lions den" LMAO. You guys are real good at dishing it out but don't take it very well.......Hey Nobody...it is directed toward you...you seem to have a hard time figuring that out. Bring on your best gum bumpin but get ready to get your feelings hurt.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I for one am learnig quite a bit from the differences, if everyone would keep things in line I'm sure this thread can stay alive for a while. If the cheerleaders for each side can keep things sensible I am looking forward to hearing what Dustin, Nobody and the guys have to say. just my opinion...Rob

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

i tell you what, everybody on here arguing they are the best at what they do, just send me whatever you build or design, and i will test them this summer for you at LOTO..... it might be the only way we get to the bottom of this, i will do it for the betterment of OSO..... :D :D

keep the info coming, but no need to make it personal..... and if you are hiding behind a screen name, come out and say who you are and what you do.... that way we can have all the facts and form our own opinions

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

A lot of knowledge, emotion and ego here.
Great Thread!

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

it almost has gone apache..... :D :evilb: :D

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Oh - you had to go and say it, didn't you!?!?! :p :D :D

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

apache, apache, apache......... :evilb: :evilb: :evilb:

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Lol!! :d

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

I may throw that into the mix..........Incoming!!!!!!!!!

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

TMP....................

When you said dynoed at GT Performance, do you mean Gary Teague at GT Performance in California.

Gary Teague also built a couple of big 1600HP quad rotor motors for Bob at Eliminator boats for his 36 that he ended up selling not so long ago.

Jeff

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

well jassman , after thinking about your response , i fell that i should at least give a statement , because alot of oso members probably don't know what i did and you try to make me appear in a gray light.

that dog ain't huntin'.

yes , i was cooperating with the fbi and the united states department of justice in a corruption investigation into criminal activites in a state court. i was involved from
august 1999 to april 2004. i was very instrumental in helping catch a crooked judge. he attempted to have me killed and settled on planting illegal narcotics in my truck among other crimes .he is now serving a 42 month sentance in federal prision.

thank you for reminding me about my dedication to our country.

now back to our reguarly scheduled program.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

Look out everyone!!! A double naught spy :evilb:

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

LMAO!!!!! :D :evilb: :D

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

i'm laughing too :evilb: btw . since your buying a 42 cigarette
maybe you should dump that gold membership get a better avatar od.

Re: Miami Show TMP1600
 

lol i fail to see what my membership has to do with anything, and the guy in the avatar is a double naught spy as well...

Go go gadget boat!!!!