Carb opinions 540's 700 hp...
03-22-2015 | 08:41 AM
#201
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,691
Likes: 217
From: Olmsted Falls,Ohio Marblehead,Oh
my carbs now are HP500 carbs 800cfm, I know I need bigger then that..
03-22-2015 | 08:44 AM
#203
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Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Little River SC
Did I mention Holley EFI ?
It gives you a perfect tune throughout your RPM range, turn key start and idle (docking stall problems gone....save your pride) , computer controlled ignition timing (no need for multi spark that does not work above 3000 RPM's anyway....save $$$$). How about protecting that investment against cylinder wash down, engine knock, temperature, water pressure, oil pressure, fuel pressure, ect ect. It will even do its best to protect the engine from its owner. Upgradeable to any future mods with a self tune ability up to 600% that will amaze you if you have not seen it in action. Can you tell I just got back from Holley EFI training.
2 years ago if asked about EFI I would of said never, I had been married to carbs for 40+ years. Early last year we installed our first Holley EFI systems. We are currently working on 8 Holley EFI builds and 0 carbureted (2 are carb to EFI). We do not work on very much stock stuff where the engine value is low so its tuff to justify the cost to switch to EFI but if you have to buy fuel and/or ignition systems anyway its worth a close look.
It gives you a perfect tune throughout your RPM range, turn key start and idle (docking stall problems gone....save your pride) , computer controlled ignition timing (no need for multi spark that does not work above 3000 RPM's anyway....save $$$$). How about protecting that investment against cylinder wash down, engine knock, temperature, water pressure, oil pressure, fuel pressure, ect ect. It will even do its best to protect the engine from its owner. Upgradeable to any future mods with a self tune ability up to 600% that will amaze you if you have not seen it in action. Can you tell I just got back from Holley EFI training.
2 years ago if asked about EFI I would of said never, I had been married to carbs for 40+ years. Early last year we installed our first Holley EFI systems. We are currently working on 8 Holley EFI builds and 0 carbureted (2 are carb to EFI). We do not work on very much stock stuff where the engine value is low so its tuff to justify the cost to switch to EFI but if you have to buy fuel and/or ignition systems anyway its worth a close look.
03-22-2015 | 08:46 AM
#204
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,103
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From: michigan
We have not had 1 engine in 6 years on our dyno that we have not picked up HP and TQ. On new builds over 600 HP we have seen over 50 HP gains. On our past builds that we did carb to EFI swaps the numbers have only been about 20 HP more because we don't need as much of a "safe" tune but the value of the quality control of the entire RPM range and engine protection is worth every dime.
Yes ........ a big shout out to Alex for converting this married to the carb guy!!!!!!
Yes ........ a big shout out to Alex for converting this married to the carb guy!!!!!!
Last edited by brian41; 03-22-2015 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Had to thank Alex
03-22-2015 | 09:00 AM
#205
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Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Olmsted Falls,Ohio Marblehead,Oh
We have not had 1 engine in 6 years on our dyno that we have not picked up HP and TQ. On new builds over 600 HP we have seen over 50 HP gains. On our past builds that we did carb to EFI swaps the numbers have only been about 20 HP more because we don't need as much of a "safe" tune but the value of the quality control of the entire RPM range and engine protection is worth every dime.
Yes ........ a big shout out to Alex for converting this married to the carb guy!!!!!!
Yes ........ a big shout out to Alex for converting this married to the carb guy!!!!!!
03-22-2015 | 09:19 AM
#206
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,103
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From: michigan
well what kind of cost then? I need to finish engines, still assemble heads up, waiting on parts and have more to buy still, but if EFI is like 6000.+ it just is not gonna happen now, maybe next winter, I am not doubting its better at all, understand it's almost April and I would like to boat by Memorial day, if the boat would not run on carbs and I NEEDED the EFI, that would be different, I can only do so much in one winter guys, I am not using credit so I gotta do whats in my budget...
May even save you from a lot of typing next year............again PRICELESS!!!!
03-22-2015 | 09:25 AM
#207
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From: Olmsted Falls,Ohio Marblehead,Oh
Cost is going to be around $3500-4000 each but thats with HP EFI system, complete fuel system, intake and ignition. Total what you are going to spend on these items going carbed and don't forget the multi spark that everybody runs. The cost difference between the 2 is what EFI is going to cost up front.......the savings down the road......PRICELESS!!!!
May even save you from a lot of typing next year............again PRICELESS!!!!
May even save you from a lot of typing next year............again PRICELESS!!!!
03-22-2015 | 10:35 AM
#208
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,332
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From: chicago
To your point of the relevance of what someone's profession is Tim.........
When a hobbyist tries to discredit a very well respected professional with zero experience with said professional, it makes them appear foolish.
The same hobbyist recommended that you bury your flame arrestor in a blind hole in your hatch so you can fit a dominator on your Setup. Now, that's some solid advice there!
You have faith that your carb guy, nailed your carb setup for you. Nothing wrong with that, and I even mentioned earlier, that while I've never heard of Dale at CFM, it looks like he has good reviews on the internet from customers. So, you may think I'm an azz trying to discredit a "highly respected professional", you've done your share to discredit me. I don't know how your guy's carbs run on boats, you dont know how some shelf carbs worked on boats. Fair enough to agree to disagree there? Looking back over this thread, and for the past several months I've been discussing Tim's build with him, my suggestion to him, was for that build, I'd go with a dominator if he could fit it, or at least a 950-1050 4150 carb. Apparently, I'm not the only one who agrees with that recommendation. Assuming he was going to dyno, I also suggested trying his carb first, then a 1050, and make a decision from there. I know that Tim is on a very tight budget, and wants to go boating. I have used stock holleys, and stock quick fuels, with great results. I personally, have had no reason to advise my boater friends that they NEED a custom carburetor. The ones who felt they did, and went to a custom carb shop, had issues.
In one particular scenerio, he had a set of custom carbs. On the water, with the wideband hooked up, and carbs setup the way they came shipped, air fuel ratio was in the 14's at 3000-3500 RPM. This was a HEAVY boat, and making a slight amount of boost at that point. After 3500ish, the air fuel ratio would drop to the low 11's, and by wot, was in the 9's for air fuel ratio!!! Hardly a linear fuel curve. Now, that was one carb shop. Does this mean all are bad, absolutely not. Maybe generalizing about them, based on the couple shops I dealt with, was simply unfair.
As far as Tim's situation, shame on me I guess, for recommending to him, a pair of off the shelf 950-1050 4150 carbs, that he can get for around 1400-1500 a pair. Carbs that will allow Tim to go out on the water with his buddy scott, grab a case of beer, and spend a little time dialing it in. I understand that Tim is budget limited, and doesnt have 7-8 thousand to invest in fuel injection on this build, after going thru all the BS with the past set of engines that failed on him, therefore it wasnt even brought up. Certainly EFI would be better. It be better for my engines as well, but this ''truck driver" would rather spend 8 thousand, towards some other upgrades to the boat.
As far as "dyno'' tuning the carbs, thats great if you have a dyno operator who is good, and can simulate the part throttle loads in the boat. Doing sweep pulls, when the fuel is shooting out of the accelerator pumps, doesn't exactly set the carb up for a 3500 RPM cruise scenerio.
These are offshore boat motors. These arent NHRA engines squeezing out that last .02 off their et's, nascar engines, outlaw engines, etc. Tim wants a carb that is gonna idle good, have respectable fuel distribution and air fuel ratios thru the operating band , provide enough airflow when he's at wot, quality castings with tuneability options. So, if my recommendation makes me look like a ''fool'' on oso, so be it. I am not here to sell parts, promote products, or line my wallet. Simply a boater, or ''hobbyist", or even "fool", as you call it. The marine engines I've helped tuned carbs on, I got paid for with a boat ride, and a few cold ones.
03-22-2015 | 10:43 AM
#209
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,691
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From: Olmsted Falls,Ohio Marblehead,Oh
Foolish? You sir are the only one on this thread, who has shown you do not have a clue how a carb works. Comparing a guys 4150 BLOW THRU carb, to a 4150 N/A?? You have faith that your carb guy, nailed your carb setup for you. Nothing wrong with that, and I even mentioned earlier, that while I've never heard of Dale at CFM, it looks like he has good reviews on the internet from customers. So, you may think I'm an azz trying to discredit a "highly respected professional", you've done your share to discredit me. I don't know how your guy's carbs run on boats, you dont know how some shelf carbs worked on boats. Fair enough to agree to disagree there?
Looking back over this thread, and for the past several months I've been discussing Tim's build with him, my suggestion to him, was for that build, I'd go with a dominator if he could fit it, or at least a 950-1050 4150 carb. Apparently, I'm not the only one who agrees with that recommendation. Assuming he was going to dyno, I also suggested trying his carb first, then a 1050, and make a decision from there. I know that Tim is on a very tight budget, and wants to go boating. I have used stock holleys, and stock quick fuels, with great results. I personally, have had no reason to advise my boater friends that they NEED a custom carburetor. The ones who felt they did, and went to a custom carb shop, had issues.
In one particular scenerio, he had a set of custom carbs. On the water, with the wideband hooked up, and carbs setup the way they came shipped, air fuel ratio was in the 14's at 3000-3500 RPM. This was a HEAVY boat, and making a slight amount of boost at that point. After 3500ish, the air fuel ratio would drop to the low 11's, and by wot, was in the 9's for air fuel ratio!!! Hardly a linear fuel curve. Now, that was one carb shop. Does this mean all are bad, absolutely not. Maybe generalizing about them, based on the couple shops I dealt with, was simply unfair.
As far as Tim's situation, shame on me I guess, for recommending to him, a pair of off the shelf 950-1050 4150 carbs, that he can get for around 1400-1500 a pair. Carbs that will allow Tim to go out on the water with his buddy scott, grab a case of beer, and spend a little time dialing it in. I understand that Tim is budget limited, and doesnt have 7-8 thousand to invest in fuel injection on this build, after going thru all the BS with the past set of engines that failed on him, therefore it wasnt even brought up. Certainly EFI would be better. It be better for my engines as well, but this ''truck driver" would rather spend 8 thousand, towards some other upgrades to the boat.
As far as "dyno'' tuning the carbs, thats great if you have a dyno operator who is good, and can simulate the part throttle loads in the boat. Doing sweep pulls, when the fuel is shooting out of the accelerator pumps, doesn't exactly set the carb up for a 3500 RPM cruise scenerio.
These are offshore boat motors. These arent NHRA engines squeezing out that last .02 off their et's, nascar engines, outlaw engines, etc. Tim wants a carb that is gonna idle good, have respectable fuel distribution and air fuel ratios thru the operating band , provide enough airflow when he's at wot, quality castings with tuneability options. So, if my recommendation makes me look like a ''fool'' on oso, so be it. I am not here to sell parts, promote products, or line my wallet. Simply a boater, or ''hobbyist", or even "fool", as you call it. The marine engines I've helped tuned carbs on, I got paid for with a boat ride, and a few cold ones.
You have faith that your carb guy, nailed your carb setup for you. Nothing wrong with that, and I even mentioned earlier, that while I've never heard of Dale at CFM, it looks like he has good reviews on the internet from customers. So, you may think I'm an azz trying to discredit a "highly respected professional", you've done your share to discredit me. I don't know how your guy's carbs run on boats, you dont know how some shelf carbs worked on boats. Fair enough to agree to disagree there? Looking back over this thread, and for the past several months I've been discussing Tim's build with him, my suggestion to him, was for that build, I'd go with a dominator if he could fit it, or at least a 950-1050 4150 carb. Apparently, I'm not the only one who agrees with that recommendation. Assuming he was going to dyno, I also suggested trying his carb first, then a 1050, and make a decision from there. I know that Tim is on a very tight budget, and wants to go boating. I have used stock holleys, and stock quick fuels, with great results. I personally, have had no reason to advise my boater friends that they NEED a custom carburetor. The ones who felt they did, and went to a custom carb shop, had issues.
In one particular scenerio, he had a set of custom carbs. On the water, with the wideband hooked up, and carbs setup the way they came shipped, air fuel ratio was in the 14's at 3000-3500 RPM. This was a HEAVY boat, and making a slight amount of boost at that point. After 3500ish, the air fuel ratio would drop to the low 11's, and by wot, was in the 9's for air fuel ratio!!! Hardly a linear fuel curve. Now, that was one carb shop. Does this mean all are bad, absolutely not. Maybe generalizing about them, based on the couple shops I dealt with, was simply unfair.
As far as Tim's situation, shame on me I guess, for recommending to him, a pair of off the shelf 950-1050 4150 carbs, that he can get for around 1400-1500 a pair. Carbs that will allow Tim to go out on the water with his buddy scott, grab a case of beer, and spend a little time dialing it in. I understand that Tim is budget limited, and doesnt have 7-8 thousand to invest in fuel injection on this build, after going thru all the BS with the past set of engines that failed on him, therefore it wasnt even brought up. Certainly EFI would be better. It be better for my engines as well, but this ''truck driver" would rather spend 8 thousand, towards some other upgrades to the boat.
As far as "dyno'' tuning the carbs, thats great if you have a dyno operator who is good, and can simulate the part throttle loads in the boat. Doing sweep pulls, when the fuel is shooting out of the accelerator pumps, doesn't exactly set the carb up for a 3500 RPM cruise scenerio.
These are offshore boat motors. These arent NHRA engines squeezing out that last .02 off their et's, nascar engines, outlaw engines, etc. Tim wants a carb that is gonna idle good, have respectable fuel distribution and air fuel ratios thru the operating band , provide enough airflow when he's at wot, quality castings with tuneability options. So, if my recommendation makes me look like a ''fool'' on oso, so be it. I am not here to sell parts, promote products, or line my wallet. Simply a boater, or ''hobbyist", or even "fool", as you call it. The marine engines I've helped tuned carbs on, I got paid for with a boat ride, and a few cold ones.
03-22-2015 | 10:45 AM
#210
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,691
Likes: 217
From: Olmsted Falls,Ohio Marblehead,Oh
As far as calling Dale, yes, I just may, but I still dont see the reason to spend extra money that is not needed, I will take any recommendations, and do wnat I feel is in my budget in the end... I dont see the carb making or breaking my build for reliability and turn key... PLENTY of boats with carbs that are reliable and turn key..
