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The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509+some hull work
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After one really great summer with almost no mishaps with the Pantera it became time for the 509 to get a, well deserved, rebirth.
Top speed during the summer was 77,5mph on GPS which is very low for the Factory 1 Pantera with an engine that is supposed to produce 720-740 crank HP. When the engine was all new Dave @ MDG Performance (the engine builder) ran 84mph on the test run and Jo Nuñez and BJ Maher are supposed to have run 89mph. We have now started taring down the engine and have done a compression test and a cold leak down. We never started it before the test just ran it on the starter for a total of a couple of minutes. So the leak down might be a bit off. Leak Down 1: 25% | 38% 2: 19% | 21% 3: 80% | 80% 4: 53% | 55% 5: 60% | 60% 6: 27% | 38% 7: 42% | 48% 8: 23% | 34% Compression (not the static comp...) 1: 10,1 psi | 10,7 psi 2: 10,8 psi | 10,9 psi 3: 07,0 psi | 08,0 psi 4: 10,7 psi | 11,0 psi 5: 09,4 psi | 10,0 psi 6: 10,6 psi | 10,6 psi 7: 10,5 psi | 10,9 psi 8: 10,3 psi | 10,4 psi |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
According to the leak down the valves seems to be fine but the rings is either totally waisted or they are stuck in the pistons (the engine hasn't been run for about three months). Altough we had the pistons about 25deg before TDC and forced them up to TDC against the air pressure, to get the rings to live - then got the reading.
The heads are going off tonight, then we'll see what it looks like. Pics to come! |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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Also it's pretty milky in the valve valley and in the valve covers, during summer there was most of the time some cream coming out of the valve vents.
The oil on the dipstick is absolutely flawless, changed the oil 3-4 times during summer and it looked great every time. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 1987475)
during summer there was most of the time some cream coming out of the valve vents.
But the engine run pretty cold during the sumer? |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by Mange
(Post 1987497)
Yeeah, I remeber that. Even tasted like Cafe au Lait :-)
But the engine run pretty cold during the sumer? Yes on the normal runs I beleive it ran pretty cold, but on the other hand on harder runs it ran pretty hot. The only time we really measured the oil temp was during a long run at about 74-75mph (wot is at 77,5mph) and got 280F... |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Tomas, What size are your carbs? What kind of boost were you running?
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Hey Tomas Wallin, I think that the milky ness is pretty normal if your motor runs really cool. As long as the oil is clean and normal I think it's ok. I think it just the condensation building up under the valve cover. I was having the same problem in my 22 classic Donzi with a worked 454. The oil looked great every time I changed it, but there was some chocolate milk type stuff under the valve cover. I went with a higher (180) thermostat to burn off the condensation and it worked. Just throwing in my 2 cents.
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
I had the same thing happening on my 28 when I ran it.
The oil in the lower end looked good but on the inside of the valve covers & lifter valley it was milkshaked. Thomas's description of Irish coffee summed it up great. My first thought was Condensation due to low oil temp so what I done was clean off the inside of the valve covers & heads , rockers ect also give it a quick oil change the best I could ( It held 14 quarts , 3 oil filters & oil running through both of the turbo's as well. ) So that is what I mean by the best I could. As I am shure there was some oil in a few of the lines that didn't get completly drained. Then I bypassed the oil cooler & ran it for a little while to see what happened & it still happened. It was the end of the season here when I was doing this & I ended up pulling the power over the winter & selling the boat so I never really got a definate on what it was doing. However in my situation I feel it was the good old copper headgaskets seaping & staying in the upper end of my motor, or it could have been a combination of both for that matter. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Tomas , Have you tore your motor down yet & ifso what kind of headgaskets where on it ? Also was the block oringed & the heads reciever grooved ? The reason I ask is I am putting my Supercharged 511 back togather & I have been doing as much research as I can on my headgaskets because I don't want to deal with the normal leaky copper gasket situation. If I was starting from scratch I would just run a MLS Cometic gasket & be done with it , However since my shortblock is still togather & the block is already ringed I cannot run the MLS so I will be going another route. I have been talking to Dean Gellner from Gellner engenering & I think we have the problem solved. Let me know if your engine is grooved & oringed & ifso I will be glad to pass along any info that I have on the subject. Talk to you later , Scott
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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tomas, this helped me get rid of condensation.
Works great, but grab your wallet |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Im betting on a hurt piston or 2
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomcei
(Post 1987640)
Tomas, What size are your carbs? What kind of boost were you running?
Originally Posted by MikeFormula
(Post 1987652)
Hey Tomas Wallin, I think that the milky ness is pretty normal if your motor runs really cool. As long as the oil is clean and normal I think it's ok. I think it just the condensation building up under the valve cover. I was having the same problem in my 22 classic Donzi with a worked 454. The oil looked great every time I changed it, but there was some chocolate milk type stuff under the valve cover. I went with a higher (180) thermostat to burn off the condensation and it worked. Just throwing in my 2 cents.
http://www.cpperformance.com/images/620-312tt95.jpg
Originally Posted by littledcsrodshop
(Post 1988085)
Tomas , Have you tore your motor down yet & ifso what kind of headgaskets where on it ? Also was the block oringed & the heads reciever grooved ? The reason I ask is I am putting my Supercharged 511 back togather & I have been doing as much research as I can on my headgaskets because I don't want to deal with the normal leaky copper gasket situation. If I was starting from scratch I would just run a MLS Cometic gasket & be done with it , However since my shortblock is still togather & the block is already ringed I cannot run the MLS so I will be going another route. I have been talking to Dean Gellner from Gellner engenering & I think we have the problem solved. Let me know if your engine is grooved & oringed & ifso I will be glad to pass along any info that I have on the subject. Talk to you later , Scott
Originally Posted by tomcei
(Post 1988333)
tomas, this helped me get rid of condensation.
Works great, but grab your wallet
Originally Posted by B-Stubb
(Post 1988567)
Im betting on a hurt piston or 2
I still haven't got the pics out of my cam... :( |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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Some pics of the 1st side pistons and heads
There was a little bit of water in some of the pistons on this side... Don't really know how it got there since the exhausts look really fine. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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2nd side
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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The 1st side pistons have much more carbon (or burnt oil) on them than the 2nd side for some reason.
Here's the #3 piston, valves and cylinder wall (the 80% leak down one) The moisture marks on the wall is probably WD-40 |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 1988976)
Some pics of the 1st side pistons and heads
There was a little bit of water in some of the pistons on this side... Don't really know how it got there since the exhausts look really fine. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by littledcsrodshop
(Post 1989005)
If there was water on top of the pistons I would guess it would have been coming from the headgaskets leaking if everything in the exhaust is ok & you wern't getting any reversion.
Edit: The head gaskets did not look fine, clear signs of leakage between cylinders. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 1989015)
Yes, but the head gaskets looked fine, altough I only ran it one short turn after the incident with the broken water pump belt when the engine ran dry and got a bit too hot.
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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Originally Posted by littledcsrodshop
(Post 1989021)
How hot is a bit too hot ??
Altough I'm pretty sure that there was some water flow the whole time because of the pressure from the pickup. It was really steamy in the engine compartment and some water in the bilge when we opened the hatch. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Yeah I would have to agree that is a bit too hot. :eek:
It would be hard to tell exactly when the water got in there , whether it was before or after it got hot. I am not shure how much water pressure if any would be running through the engine with the belt gone. ( someone else will probably know that better than I do. ) I am shure you plan on having everything checked out while it is down but I would make shure that I got those heads cheaked out good ( since it got pretty hot. ) I don't really know any other way that the water would have gotten there besides either reversion , Intake gaskets leaking , Headgaskets leaking , or letting go. Unless the heads have issues due to the heat. Which if I had to gamble I would say that the water was probably comming in from the headgaskets , or poss. the intake gaskets. Although I would lean towards the headgaskets because the leakdown & that it had been there before your last run. Just my 2 cents. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Are you sure there wasn't water sitting in the intake/ or heads and then when you took them off and the water just leaked down into the cylinder once you popped the head off. It happens all the time.
As far as the milky oil I see some in the picks, but I don't think it's from condensation there is way too much rust everywhere. I think you had an intake leak, and water was getting in there and mixing with the oil. Maybe! The only other I don't understand is why is that same area on every piston is clean like that. It was almost as if the water was getting in the intake side somehow and steam cleaning that part of the piston. I really don't know. Sorry! And when you say hot, holy cow that was hot!!!!! |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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Originally Posted by littledcsrodshop
(Post 1989077)
...I don't really know any other way that the water would have gotten there besides either reversion , Intake gaskets leaking , Headgaskets leaking , or letting go. Unless the heads have issues due to the heat. Which if I had to gamble I would say that the water was probably comming in from the headgaskets , or poss. the intake gaskets. Although I would lean towards the headgaskets because the leakdown & that it had been there before your last run. Just my 2 cents.
Originally Posted by MikeFormula
(Post 1989093)
Are you sure there wasn't water sitting in the intake/ or heads and then when you took them off the water didn't leak down into the cylinder. It happens all the time.
As far as the milky oil I see some in the picks, but I don't think it's from condensation there is way too much rust everywhere. I think you had an intake leak, and water was getting in there and mixing with the oil. Maybe! The only other I don't understand is why is that same area on every piston is clean like that. It was almost as if the water was getting in the intake side somehow and steam cleaning that part of the piston. I really don't know. Sorry! And when you say hot, holy cow that was hot!!!!! This might be the cause of both the milky oil in the top and the water in the cyl's. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
After seeing this last picture I really think you had a intake gasket leaking no doubt in my mind.
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 1989094)
Something like this then... It's identical on both sides.
This might be the cause of both the milky oil in the top and the water in the cyl's. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
That intake side of the head is looking pretty ruff:eek:
That didn't happen over night either. ( running hot incident) |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomcei
(Post 1989360)
That intake side of the head is looking pretty ruff:eek:
That didn't happen over night either. ( running hot incident) |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
The plan for the rebuild and upgrade:
New gaskets :rolleyes: New valves New bearings New valve springs (Isky tool room?!) New exhaust Honing the cylinders and a valve seat job. Check/measure the cam and perhaps replace it with a roller. Intercooler (Superchiller or BDS) and some more boost. Fix the low fuel pressure problem. It might be the pump cam lobe that's torn so if the cam still will be used then an electronic pump will take care of that part (Holley or Aeromotive?!). |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Definately get an oil themostat - either a remote or cooler mounted.
I have had very good success with the Aeromotive Pumps. Look like the parts are all reusable in the engine, that's a good thing. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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The Jesel system (I assume it is the Comp Series?!) marked and deassembled.
The rust on the steel stands is not too bad really, it's pretty easy to "clean" off, so they will look fine before reassembly. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 1989015)
Yes, but the head gaskets looked fine, altough I only ran it one short turn after the incident with the broken water pump belt when the engine ran dry and got a bit too hot.
Nothing new at the engine rebuild for today? :) :evilb: Or did the evening end up with alot of booze and ladies? :evilb: |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
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Does anyone know how you tell if the carbs are boost referenced?! Is the only way to reference to have the hose from the carbs to the intake, or is there any other way?
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
The head gaskets in the engine was Fel-Pro Wire Loc's. Is it possible to use the Cometic/MLS gaskets instead or am I stuck with the Wire Loc's?!
Loc Wire head gaskets require machining a special receiver groove into the cylinder heads by a skilled machinist. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Does your heads have a reciever groove in them now ?
How about the block is , Does it have a wire orings around the cylnders ? By the pictures it is hard to tell. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by littledcsrodshop
(Post 1996180)
Does your heads have a reciever groove in them now ?
How about the block is , Does it have a wire orings around the cylnders ? By the pictures it is hard to tell. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
I could be wrong but inorder to run the cometic I believe that you would have to mill the reciever grooves out of the head.
Unless something changes I am going to mill the grooves out of mine , keep the wire orings in my block & run a copper gasket with graphite inserts around the water jackets. ( per. Dean Gellners advise.) If you only have grooves in the heads & nothing in the block I would probably mill the grooves out & run the cometic. But that is just my opinion. I am shure others will have theirs. |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 1996255)
The heads have a receiver cutout about .05 wide in them. Nothing in the block.
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Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by mikes280
(Post 2003877)
i ran these gaskets on a blower motor and every time i ran the motor hard it would milk up the oil. cut the groove off your head put cometic gaskets on it or the felpro that is like the cometic and the water will stop also we run a pcv valve this helps with the water up in the top of the motor (merc runs a pcv on about all of there motors) as for the carbs being boost referenced they will have vacum lines that go down to the intake below the blower and the power valve vent hole in the base plate of the carb will be pluged
I got the cam out and the 80%-leakdown piston last night. The cam looks good but we will measure it next week to see if it's ok and if we will go with a roller instead. Since the leak in that cylinder seemed to be from the piston,I had my hopes that the rings would be torn. I only had time to get the top ring off and the play was about .04. I will check the other ring tonight but I will probably have to look elsewhere for the leak. :( |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Do you guys have some more info on this UltraDyne cam?!
The numbers as is say on the cam: J3854 272 282F14 15 16 200278 |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Originally Posted by tomas_wallin
(Post 2004246)
Do you guys have some more info on this UltraDyne cam?!
The numbers as is say on the cam: J3854 272 282F14 15 16 200278 Mechanical flat tappet: J3854 serial # 272º/282º Seat duration 238º/248º @ .050" 146º/155º @ .200" .550"/570" lift valve .3233"/.3353" lift lobe 114 LSA 15 16 (lobe master #) |
Re: The rebuild of the Pantera coloured 509
Would you guys want to change something in this combo?
The engine is as follows: Block: Merlin II 509ci Crank: Callies Rods: Manley H-Beam Pistons: JE blower pistons (757F) Comp: 8-8.5 according to engine builder Cam: UltraDyne mechanical flat tappet (J3854) 272º/282º Seat duration 238º/248º @ .050" 146º/155º @ .200" .550"/570" lift valve .3233"/.3353" lift lobe 114 LSA 15 16 (lobe master #) Heads: GM 188 Head gaskets: FelPro Wire-Loc Valves: 1.88/2.25 Rockers: Jesel Comp Series 1.7 Intake: Blower intake Blower: BDS 8-71 Boost: About 5psi Carbs: 2x Holley 9022 800cfm Ignition: Mercruiser Exhaust: Mercruiser/GIL Hi Performance According to engine builder (MDG Performance) it dynoed at 720-740HP@5600-5700rpm on 91 octane. Planning on switching to and adding: Exhaust: Stainless Marine Gen III with 5" dry tails Intercooler: Superchiller |
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