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Its over..... "The common man"

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Old 02-24-2012, 11:09 AM
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yeah and most of the boats produced are just copies of stuff thats been around for over a decade, or quarter century, so that R & D, and tooling BS only goes so far.....
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:30 AM
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If you look at how busy OL, Skater, Cig is, I doubt they have a reason to make a boat that has low margins.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by soldier4402 View Post
I truely wonder what the true cost to a manufacture is for a single 27ft performance boat. I know you got probably 10-15 wrapped into a bravo and big block, so now that 125k is left with 100-110 for rest of the boat. Realize manufactures are getting drives and engines at whole sale. Factor in overhead labor and material for the rest I kind of wonder what the profit margin is. I highly doubt you would ever get a boat maker to come on here and truthfully state numbers.

It could be the boats are higher priced to make up for less sales. I still think they need to come back with 24-27 performance boats that are 40-60k and they would sell. Most people on here are in the 60k or less budget.
Problem is volume. If you make 100 boats 60k profit x 100 is a lot of money, if you make 5 you may not be able to pay your bills. Also dealer mark up to retail is usually another 35%. Checkmate still offers a value perfomance boat, but they are not setting the world on fire. Does today's buyer want a new 27ft boat for 60K when they can buy a used twin engine 35 fountain for the same price? If OL makes the same on 3 sales that checkmate makes on all who has the better business?

The manufactures found a way to make the same amount of money on one boat as they used to make on 10. That is where we are.

Mercruiser is close to being a monoply. Plain and simple.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:52 AM
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i used to work for a small Custom Sportfishing manufacture on the Outerbanks years ago and we built one off 58 footers. I asked the owner why he doesn't build a 45 also.

He said something that has stuck with me for 15 years.

It is not much more work and money to build a 58 footer over a 45 footer and the value is almost worth double on the market
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:53 AM
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yeah and most of the boats produced are just copies of stuff thats been around for over a decade, or quarter century, so that R & D, and tooling BS only goes so far.....
excellent point! I mean what 3 or 4 models of the new checkmates are 10+ year old Baja molds. I almost fell out of my chair laughing a few years ago when I found that Donzi Sweet 16's were retailing at $45k new.....that hull is what over 40 years old I'm pretty sure they had recouped their R&D money by now, no wonder Donzi's gone.

I do agree it's never been a cheap hobby for the common man. I mean my sticker on my boat in 91 was $32k
of course asking nearly $90k for the redone 22 Pachanga in 2010 was downright outragous especially considering it was uglier, heavier and barely would outrun mine. that said I have almost no voice in this argument, I'd never buy a boat new, maybe if I lived in a better climate....eh even then probably not lol.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:05 PM
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Something else has changed a lot and that is buyers desires.

How many people want a single black engine boat? If it isn't powered by a 525 at least most people consider it under powered, where as a decade ago a lot of 454MPIs and 502MPS went into boats. Buyers also want all the bells, whistles and billet that a 40 foot skater or mti has on their 24 foot v bottom entry level boat.

Times are tough for builders it doesn't make sense for each to have a crew to build the boats, at least the hulls. You'd almost have to have a company that laid up your hulls on your molds. If 5, 6, 10 builders contracted with one company to lay up their boats. If each builder built 10 boats, thats 100 boats a year and maybe that would make it cost effective for the builder and the company laying up the hulls

Also like auto supply warehouses they also might be able to buy enough bulk gauges, engines, wires hoses and so on to make it work.

Finally capital is a big propblem, unless the builder has something to pledge to the bank outside the boat business its going to be hard to build boats and enough (well maybe not enough) but a lot of people have paid for boat construction that took way too long or never got completed that the days of the buyer financing the boat construction for the builder is waining, at least in the low end of things.

Like everything today..there are a lot of challenges, but like all things, when there is enough demand for it, someone will build it.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:49 PM
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I just purchased a new Nordic through Key Bank. Sold my 06 Heat to do so. I feel like I got a good amount of boat for what I paid and here is why. We recently had the Utah boat show, 99% cruisers and wake board boats. When I see what these wake board boats cost it blows my mind. People here buy them up like crazy. I saw a Mastercraft and Malibu at a "boat show" price of 136K. And I really don't think there are made very well. Saw a few pontoons as I am walking by I am thinking to myself Jared buy one of these and just enjoy life...cook a fukin cheeseburger and relax. Well those cost 70K WTF! I am a complete idiot but I am sure going to enjoy my new boat and it is a write off for me...I make good money but am not even close to what I call fuk you money, which is what the Miami boat show is I'm sure.

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Old 02-24-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Von Bongo View Post
Something else has changed a lot and that is buyers desires.

How many people want a single black engine boat? If it isn't powered by a 525 at least most people consider it under powered, where as a decade ago a lot of 454MPIs and 502MPS went into boats. Buyers also want all the bells, whistles and billet that a 40 foot skater or mti has on their 24 foot v bottom entry level boat.

Times are tough for builders it doesn't make sense for each to have a crew to build the boats, at least the hulls. You'd almost have to have a company that laid up your hulls on your molds. If 5, 6, 10 builders contracted with one company to lay up their boats. If each builder built 10 boats, thats 100 boats a year and maybe that would make it cost effective for the builder and the company laying up the hulls

Also like auto supply warehouses they also might be able to buy enough bulk gauges, engines, wires hoses and so on to make it work.

Finally capital is a big propblem, unless the builder has something to pledge to the bank outside the boat business its going to be hard to build boats and enough (well maybe not enough) but a lot of people have paid for boat construction that took way too long or never got completed that the days of the buyer financing the boat construction for the builder is waining, at least in the low end of things.

Like everything today..there are a lot of challenges, but like all things, when there is enough demand for it, someone will build it.
Good points. But I dont think the average guy is concerened with black motors. You start talking higher end stuff there, and thats people with money. A BBC is maybe 7-10k tops you start talking 525's thats a different ball game. I like your points but I think your first paragraph doesnt describe the common man out there. Because go out on a lake once most boats are black motored 22-28ft boats. Very few twin engine 40ft hammers running 90 out there.

Last edited by soldier4402; 02-24-2012 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:30 PM
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Well I could build you that flat bottom for 30k. Heck you can buy one used for 8. Don't know of too many that ran 95 from the factory but gps wasn't invented yet.
The problem is you, me, or anyone DOES not want those boats. Once technology moved forward so did our preferences.
There are companies out there building lower priced boats. One (phantom) was at Miami. The only thing is you have to stop complaining and go buy them. oh you say your not in the market and then wonder why these companies are going under or not producing. It's just the physics of business.
Not many entry level people are going to risk their entire budget on a boat built by someone they don't know, who claims he can build one on the cheap.

Of course, you can buy a used anything, but that's not the point of this thread. The problem is you can't go buy a new already built 95 mph (or even 80 mph GPS) performance boat for $30K.

I looked at the Phantom website, and they don't show anything under 30 ft. I doubt those are $30K.

What technology has moved forward? The GPS speedometer is about the only thing I can think of in the past 20 years. The boating industry is one of the slowest moving industries I have ever seen as far as technology goes. They still use carburetors on a lot of engines! It's the same hulls, same engines, same drives, same props, same seats, same gelcoat. Boring. I pickup a magazine every year or so, and it is the same thing. Nothing has changed.

The only thing that has moved forward at a fast pace are the prices (for the same old stuff).

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Old 02-24-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael1 View Post
Not many entry level people are going to risk their entire budget on a boat built by someone they don't know, who claims he can build one on the cheap.

Of course, you can buy a used anything, but that's not the point of this thread. The problem is you can't go buy a new already built 95 mph (or even 80 mph GPS) performance boat for $30K.

I looked at the Phantom website, and they don't show anything under 30 ft. I doubt those are $30K.

What technology has moved forward? The GPS speedometer is about the only thing I can think of in the past 20 years. The boating industry is one of the slowest moving industries I have ever seen as far as technology goes. They still use carburetors on a lot of engines! It's the same hulls, same engines, same drives, same props, same seats, same gelcoat. Boring. I pickup a magazine every year or so, and it is the same thing. Nothing has changed.

The only thing that has moved forward at a fast pace are the prices (for the same old stuff).

Michael
Very good points and true. I have had my 91 fountain fountain next to a 2005 Fountain and 2008 Baja 33 outlaw and let me tell you beyond there isnt much difference besides my dash is old school black but everything is the same.

Boats arent like cars people dont use them like a car where you drive every single day and go on 20hour trips. My last boat was a 93 crownline with 45hours the thing looked out of the box, for 9 grand it was a steal. I bought my 91 for 26 almost two years ago and had 303hours on which isnt much. Sad thing is I could probably get that same 29 in this market for probably low 20's. Ive had boaters come up and say nice boat what is that a 2003, 2004, etc. The thing with boats I would never go new manufactures are rediculous with price, I can be out on the same water, having the same fun, goind relatively the same speed, looking just as cool at a fraction of the cost. Say they built a 29 today I would assume the boat would be 150-175k. I will never make the kind of money to justify a boat at that price, and I think the most of us would be in that boat.

Boating is a luxury got it and it cost money. But if companies could make them more reasonable priced they could sell more. But then again it goes back to their volume of sales and profit margin. On a 150k boat I would assume the profit margin is farily large per boat, but as far as volume goes it may not be big thus the high price.

Its like that with everything , look at cell phones the technology is relatively the same as 5 years ago, phone are actually getting bigger again, so the arguement that smaller technology cost more is bs.

Even cars and trucks the price keeps going up, yes you have some creature comforts and better fuel efficient engines but for the most part if I stuck you in a 2000 1500 and a 2012 1500 and said drive it blind folded you wouldnt know the difference
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