Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Now here's a guy that knows his sh!t... In the lubricant industry you are what we call an involved buyer.. :)

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

We have a few good stories to tell....several have commented that main bearings lubed with Mobil-1 V-Twin 20W-50 look like brand new on tear down.

Now that we have "seen" the stuff works it justifies the added price. I started all this a year and a half ago to get some products used and to see what works BEST. I found my answer.

I also realize that Amsoil has several great products and that Kendall 20W-50 is well respected and should be. Shell Rotella 15W-40 is the way to go for a great conventional formulation that is nicely priced.

I do not want to appear to be the "end all" of what you should and should not use. But you guys have kept me in line from time to time when I got a bit over-zealous with my preferences. Lots of great choices...but very few BEST POSSIBLE contenders. The Premium Synthetics rule and they should due to cost...but they are worth every drop in my opinion. It is not marketing BS it is fact on both paper and in the crankcase they add a bigger margin of saftey and protection. These products are not ripoffs...they work.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

New Amsoil Oil Filters looking quite impressive...who is going to give 'em a try for us?

http://www.amsoil.com/products/ea_filters/EaO.aspx

Benefits include:
• 25,000 miles or one year service life in cars and light trucks
• Higher capacity than competing filter lines
• Excellent flow characteristics
• Reduced engine wear
• Certified OEM fitment

The filters also feature fully tucked seams, a molded element seal, roll-formed threads and a long-lasting premium grade silicone anti-drain valve.

Fast Fact: A nanofiber is less than one micron in diameter. A human hair is 80 microns.



Nanofiber Filter Media

Traps sub-micron size particles on the nanofiber surface
Prevents particles from lodging in the filter media depth

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

A couple oil geeks wrote this...

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Just noticed Amsoil is phasing out the SDF's and replacing them with these new Ae filters. I think I still have a few left for the boat and my wifes car so I guess I'll be going through them first.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I like the flow of the old and new filters...this is the secret of going to an extended drain frequency....great flowing and trapping filters...it will extend the life of any oil I would imagine unless you have a situation where the oil is overheating and then you have got a BIG problem.

Oil overheating is probably responsible for more engine failures than most realize. It decomposes the oil and you are left with little film strength.

Remember...keep your oil cool...probably the best lesson we seemed to have picked up on this year.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked what is the lowest viscosity Synthetic oil that I would consider trying out in a stock offshore rig....my best guess would be M-1 10W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle oil. It probably would be just fine and you would get better immediate flow and great cooling too. I would not use it for racing or in hopped up mills. But for 496's or Small blocks why not as it has a flashpoint of 487*F...tough stuff...! It has lots of ZDDP like it's big brother V-Twin.

15W-40 Amsoil would be worth a look see too.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...4T_10W-40.aspx

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I got a couple more e-mails asking if there is a "SAE 30 WT" synthetic...this is the closest thing I can find...up to you as to deciding if you want to go with it.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Should you fog before storage?..yes...with what? a product such as Merc's fogging oil..

A side advantage to fogging some have found is the hard carbon gets softened by the oil when sitting for a few months. Noticed this visiting a shop doing preseason rebuilds, the carbon comes off "ez" if the engine had been fogged.

Probably some gets blown off after the first good run too.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The top rated non-synthetic oils from a recent study I came upon....

Castrol RX Super 15w40
Chevron Delo 400 15w40
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40
Pennzoil Long-Life 15w40
Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40
Shell Rotella-T 15w40
SuperTech 2000 (WalMart) 15w40
Valvoline All Fleet 15w40
Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydrocruiser said:

Hydrocruiser also said:

Hey, aren't those "diesel oils"? :evilb: :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Oh quit it with the "Hydro said stuff".... :D

Oils labeled "diesel" have harsher detergents for soot and carbon control... like magnesium and silicon. They are also high in ZDDP for anti-wear... They are the only choices for a diesel for sure...some feel good for any iron block rig...but they can be hard on aluminum parts and not for use in aluminum block engines so say the gurus. So not for your family vehicle...but marine use? Looking good after looking into it more...

They are probably the best of the lower priced oils. Rotella goes for 6 bucks at Home Depot in 5 qt plastic containers. With a $2.99 A/C filter it's the best value out there if you want to pay less...and some do.

Not to worry my synthetic friends....you guys have much tougher film strength and outperform all those other guys.. ;)

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yawwnn...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I forgot...and I am sincere...what is your take on what is best to use?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Hey Hydrocruiser, I'd like you to ask your "gurus" if they've ever heard of the Duramax diesel... Lot's of aluminum in that. Ask them to go to Bob's site and look at the UOA's on Duramax and Cummins diesels running conventional 15w40 HDEO's. Virtually no aluminum showing up in the oil. Where's that evidence of being "hard on parts"? My Cummins has aluminum pistons. And 215,000 miles. UOA's show almost no aluminum wear.


Jim

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Ok, here's my humble opinion:

On extended drains in boats: synthetic 15w40 or 15w50 or 20w50

On 20 hour changes in boats: Kendall 20w50, any HDEO or Merc 25w40

In my wife's E430: Mobil 1 0w40 & 13k oil changes

Cummins: 15w40 HDEO anything

Everything else: HDEO 15W40 (Includes Trooper, Miata, Tracker, 1966 Massey Diesel)

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sounds fine...how many hours would you extend out to with a synthetic in a boat?

..and your wife has a great car...how do you like Benz's new 430 engine? I see a lot of S430 models out there as well...it's a six cylinder that has a good amount of HP and torque? Seems to be selling better than E500 or S500 models. Benz also wants a lot more $ for the 500 engine.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

In a hi perf BBC, I'd never go beyond 20 hours. That's why I don't use synthetics. I'd run synthetics out to 50 hours or so in a conventional (cruiser-style) engine, I guess. But I've had such good performance out of dino oils, that I use them to 50 hours in my Donzi's 351w and my old Trojan's 318 Chrysler. Never had an oil related issue.

The 430 is a V8.

Jim

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

You are very good at matching a specific product to a particular service requeirement and drain interval. The results you describe match that.

Oh the 430 is a V-8...I heard it is a smooth running high tech machine too

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

How about a lineup in suggested recommended order of Drive Oils/Gear Lubes?

Lot's of great reading here, Thanks :D
I was already a BIG fan of Mobil 1 Syn oils. 95 Yukon with 185K miles all on Mobil 1 10w30 and the Z06 gets 5w30. Previous boat had Mobil 1 as well.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Silicon is in engine oil....,...............it's a anti-foam additive.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

To add to everyone's confusion. The Mobilube SHC series is gone now. It's not Delvac Synthetic Gear Oil for the 75w90 and the 80w140. Also Superflo is gone, cases are still aviliable in stores. Also the Mobiltrans SHC 50 will be renamed..

Also one more wrench into your fire. The PVL/TRUCK/SUV oils have changed again... Here's the letter going to customers..

ENJOY!!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro,heres a question from us northern guys:What is a good weight of synthetic oil to run in a snowmobile chain case? I don't buy off on getting little 6 oz bottles for 7-10$ from klotz or a oem,its obviously not some magical oil,it looks like 40 or 50 wt motor oil but I'm not sure. Its just lubricating steel sprockets spinning with a chain on them and has to lubricate down to about -20 degrees f. There are guys running 80/90 synthetic but I think it robs hp in the cold. On a side note I ended up with 55 gallons of synthetic quaker state 50wt gear oil that is about useless for anything,would it be a good candidate for these chaincases? Any opinions or experience on what oil would be about the best without getting ripped off buying these little bottles of "mystery oil" (I have 5 sleds to fill chain cases on),Smitty

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Ya know Hydrocruiser, for a guy who does a lot of research... you sure don't do much research... :D

V-Twin has the same silicon level as the HDEO's. And the ONLY HDEO that uses high levels of magnesium is MOBIL DELVAC 1. Rotella and Delo both have very low levels of Magnesium. So what exactly are these "harsher detergents"?

Jim

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Most chain case oil is a GL-5 rated product. Although it does not say so all you have to do is smell it. It will probally be a 80W or 75W something. Most likely a 75W if it is a synthetic product. Lets face it you need the low temp pour properties of a full synthetic product just because of the ambient temp you use a sled in. I was using Spectro Golden Motorcycle gear lube, a 80W trans oil for bikes with no problem. When Spectro introduced a full syn chain case oil I switched. I guess it just made me feel better. It comes in a 12 oz bottle so 1 bottle will do my sled with some left. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Smitty;
I have been running full synthetic tranny fluid in my snowmobile chaincase for 2 ears now. I got this from a couple of guys who have highly modified trail sleds. They usually put on 3000-4000 miles a year on a sled! If its good enough for my chain in my transfer case in my truck, I assume it is good enough for my sled. (lower viscosity less HP loss)
Jason

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

...I am ruined! :D

Silicon comes in many forms...some gets into oil from silicone seals...some in the oil itself and some from "dirt" that has the silica material like that found in sand. Some forms harsh and others not.

It can be a detergent...anti-foamant or "dirt" component. Depeding on molecular form.

Diesel oils do have more detergency and some say a bit more than that compatable to aluminum blocks. But they might be wrong...so I am fine with your comments.

So everybody is right on this one...I think. :crazy:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am not an expert here..but know of guys that do the same and get great results.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What causes the detergency? Is it an additive? The base oil? Different levels of something? What? How can it be harmful to aluminum, when most diesels have aluminum in them?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Detergents are additives. Detergent is a very important component of engine oil. It helps to control deposits by keeping them in suspension and comming in direct contact with metal surfaces and, in some cases, neutralizing acids. Detergents are usually metallic (vs organic,low ash 2 cycle),(commonly barium, calcium,or magnesium) coumpounds. Because of the metallic composition, when burned there is a slight ash residue. When added to a base stock detergents are usually used in conjunction with dispersants. This is commonly called "the detergent/dispersant package", or DI package. The package works like dish soap...if you just had a dertergent, when you wash a plate under the surface of the water the detergent would clean the plate however the food dirt would just float to the top of the dish water and when you pulled the clean plate out the oils would replate to the clean surface. Dispersants surround themselves around the "dirt" and hold them in suspension in the water. This is one of the reasons the water becomes grey or dirty. If we did not have dispersants in engine oil the detergents would just move dirt around in the motor until it fell out of suspension on a horizontal surface. This type of deposit is sludge. Diesel engine oils do not have "harsher" dertergents, stronger might be a better word. Diesel oils must keep soot in suspension. The soot comes from the fuel. Lets just say the DI package in a diesel works hard. Reacting to aluminum? Just not going to happen. And yes, if the diesel oil has an A.P.I. rating that starts with the letter "S", you can by all means use the product in a gas engine. The prefix "S" in the A.P.I. rating stands for spark, as in spark ignition (gas engine), the prefix "C" in the A.P.I. rating means "compression" as in compression ingnition ( diesel engine). There are engine oils on the market that are considered "goof proof". They carry both the S and C rating. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

In looking over some of the diesel oil UAO's it is apparent that the detergent/dispersant levels are higher than some other oils. So I will leave it to you guys to decide if you are ok with that in your application.

I do also notice that friction reduction agents are also either lacking in some or reduced. This would affect mileage in a gas engine. That is one difference to at least think about as friction reducers can also decrease wear.

I find what some on other boards were saying to have swayed me initially and now I am neutral on the issue.

Use it. :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Which friction reducers? Which detergent dispersants? Which oils? When you compare the VOA's of the additives in V-Twin to the VOA's of the additives in Rotella, they are very similar. (I'm not saying Rotella's better than V-Twin!) I just want to know why the additives in Rotella (or any other HDEO) whould hurt an aluminum motor, (or gas mileage??? :rolleyes: ), when the same additives in V-Twin would not hurt an aluminum motor...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

"Shell ROTELLA® T Multigrade
Shell ROTELLA® T Multigrade with Advanced Soot Control is a premium quality, heavy-duty multigrade oil for all-season use in diesel-powered or a mix of gasoline- and diesel-powered equipment. It meets or exceeds the warranty and service requirements of virtually all diesel and gasoline engine manufacturers - for both newer and older engines. It is recommended for all on-highway and off-highway applications, especially where all-season use is desired".

"Shell ROTELLA® T Synthetic 5W-40
Shell ROTELLA® T Synthetic is a fully synthetic heavy-duty diesel and gasoline engine oil developed especially to meet the requirements of North American driving. The exclusive Shell formulation offers users exceptional performance and protection in combination with enhanced fuel economy potential over conventional 15W-40 motor oils. This synthetic multigrade engine oil meets the service requirements of virtually all four-stroke cycle diesel and gasoline engine manufacturers".

.....older formulations of these products were harsh according to a tech-line call I made...this is 2005...new products..just read the label.. :drink:


I will even throw in a "you were right and I was wrong"...friends? :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

why don't you go over the fact that if you use v-twin in a vehicle w/a catalytic coverter it will be damaging....

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

As I have stated in an earlier post, higher levels of zinc & phosporous (which are found in better motorcycle lubricants) have not be proven to shorten the life of a catlytic converter. BMW motorcycles have be using cats for years and for years their branded motorcycle lubricant has had extremely high levels of anti-wear. I my opinon it's a non-issue. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Most friction modified oils started to show their face with the introduction of energy conserving and more so with the intro of A.P.I. SJ. At one point copper was used as an additive but some blenders are moving toward moly. Friction modified lubricants do not make the pistion slide easier in the bore, they make the oil molecules slide over each other easier. This may contrubite some to better fuel milage, however larger gains in fuel milage come from lighter viscosity oils. ie;5w20 vs 20w50. Maybe this is why I never hear anybody at the dock talking fuel milage. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

with out getting into this and my background...

a quote from Mobile:
"Additive packages balanced differently for motorcycle engine and transmission operation. For passenger vehicles, fuel economy and emission system protection are higher priorities. These require low phosphorus systems and the use of friction modifiers."

ps...motorcycle and automotive are VERY different.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

...and so are offshore engines different too...they need lubricants similiar to what motorcycle oils are made of.. :D

#1. High film strength...achieved with high viscosity single weight conventionals or a synthetic without polymers.

#2. High ZDDP levels

#3. Balanced detergents and dispersants



Synthetic motorcycle oil is the toughest beast on the block. Mostly because the base is not polymerized and it is actually a straight weight oil that behaves like a multi-vis. It can take heat as it is about equal to turbine formulations.

...however to save any hard feelings you can use lard and it will probably work fine. IN other words I respect your opinion....even if you don't agree with mine. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

This quote form Mobil is very true...........................to a point . I would have a hard time being convinced that a HD, BMW,( not the 650), Moto Guzzi, or any motorcycle with a seperate transmission is different from a car. They both have seperate engine oil, transmission oil, and in some cases, seperate primary oil. They both are water cooled, both have a moderate upper end for RPM. The biggest difference is that Detroit does not have the same agenda as the motorcycle manufactures. Fuel milage. If you do oil analysis on HD branded engine oil you will find that the levels of anti-wear are very close to that of an auto oil, 1000-1300 PPM of zinc. Some after market HD oils are less than that, close to typical SJ auto lubricants. Your typical Japanese motorcycle is a different animal from the above metiontioned brands. They do have a lubricant that is shared by both engine,transmission, and clutch. Some of the latest 600 cc class bikes are turning 17,500 rpm stock out of the box. A need for a different lubricant in this application than the needs of mom's grocery getter

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

real world experience in the race car industry. remember the commercial " motor oil is motor oil ?" there is actually some truth to that...

for normal usage in the vast majority of conditions, a good brand of petroleum based oil changed regually is 100 % adequate and will make whatever you are putting it in last, effectively forever. marine, aircraft and race cars do NOT fall into that catagory.

these motors see a much higher dynamic shock load and temperature gradient through the entire system and spend much more time at greater throttle opening than most conventional applications... therefore the requirements change. shear strength and ability to perform at hight temps become paramount.

in the race cars, thin oil means REAL hp... in the small motors...2 litre sort of things that spin only to 7200 or so , it is not uncommon to run a ZERO wt oil.... sort of looks like lime coolaide... and they live just fine. it is an extremely high grade synthetic called NEO from california... how good is this stuff ? on two seperate occassions w/ two different customers, they broke the oil pump belt leaving the motors w/ zero oil pressure. both times near the end of races and both times while leading. both drivers finished and won... one running two laps w/ no OP and the other three. in both cases the cams were blue and the cranks were blue but there was no metal to metal sticking and no melting or sticking of the bearings... pretty amazing. i wouldn't say " no damage"... we threw the rotating stuff away... but it didn't blow up at 7200 revs for 15 miles w/ 0 op.

we ran this same oil except in 15-30 wt in the 450 hp v-6 buicks that we ran at the 24 hrs of daytona... at the end of 24 hrs the motors showed absolutely ZERO wear... the rod bearings still had the little scratches in them from where i had moved the dial indicator across them to measure for clearences.

as for the mobile 1 synthetics we loved them to death.... 1/3 the price of the neo and would do 99.9 % and i could buy it anywhere as opposed to having to ship it from california.

the red line is a different story. their products are used extensively in racing but i always thought they were garbage. everything we put them in showed accelerated wear across the board. gearboxes that would go 1500 -2000 miles w/ plain old buck a quart 90 wt gear oil would be worn out to junk at 1000 on red line. motors that would keep good leak down numbers for 800 miles on every other oil in the book would lose them at 500 with redline... we had two teams sponsored by red line for both cash and product who would sell the red line out the back door and put mobile 1 in the cars... now having said all that i have to say that those are my own and others experiences and very obviously other people have more success... but i wouldn't put the stuff in my lawn mower.

as for extended drain intervals.... i think you guys are forgetting that oil does more than lubricate your motors... it acts as a depository for all the extra fuel you guys with the big carbs dump in these motors and all the other contaimainants that get generated by that as well as all the metal that gets worn away by running the oil too hot and thinned out from all this extra fuel. you aren't changing the oil because it " wears out" you are changing it like you would change old bath water... because you have filled it up with fuel and contamination and it needs to get out of your motors right now. thats what makes fuel injection the absolute salvation of the marine industry... the ability to FINALLY get rid of those carburettors so big you rent apartment space in them and put on a system that can make a fuel curve that has EXACTLY the correct amount of fuel at EVERY possible condition....but thats another story...

i am running straight 40 wt petroleum in my 502 mag mpi 's. not because i want to but because that what merc says and , right now, i can't get mobile or anyone else to say that there stuff is better for a marine app... but i am looking and would love to go to a high end thinner synthetic just for the power increase... just not willing to do it arbitrarily without any hard data to rely on.

i would just suggest that data and reporting based on the street car industry is probably not relevant at ALL to the marine industry... i would be far more interested in what the aircraft and winston cup guys are using.... their applications are much more like ours than a taxi in glitterville.