Originally Posted by jpclear

O.K., I'm gonna jump back in here against my better judgement, knowing I'm gonna get my butt kicked. --- Valvoline supplies a 20/50, full synthetic, racing oil that you can special order from accommodating auto parts suppliers that you will not find on their shelves cause it is clearly labeled "NOT STREET LEGAL". My engine builder says that this stuff has more zink in it than anything else you can buy and since we are not dealing with cat. converters here, this would be the best reasonable choice for the hi-perf marine guy. His race cars sure do well with it. And by the way; It costs less than $6/qt. from my local store; and he stands behind his builds if you use this oil. --- Jer

Originally Posted by jpclear

I am just not getting the detonation thing. If we have a well built engine that is not sucking oil into the combustion chambers in unreasonable quantities, burning, and leaving the unwanted deposits that cause detonation, or as oil, we are doing our job and reducing friction and thereby holding temperatures to acceptable levels, what's with this "pre-existing detonation" thing you are talking about? --- Jer

Originally Posted by RLW

My engine builder also endorses the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" fully synthetic 20w-50. His engines stand the test of time and I will run what is recommended by him.

Originally Posted by jpclear

I guess we are to the point of deciding what's most important to the individual; the added zinc, or the detergents. If we are going to leave it in all season, then the detergents have real merit, but I think that I like the added zinc. And if my oil ever gets to 518*F, I'm really screwed anyhow! --- Jer

Originally Posted by vandy021

I have put the buzz in some XOM managements ears about endorsing the 20w50 with some engine builders or boat manufactures, like they do with the OEM's Doubt much will happen, b/c we said something 8 years ago, so we will see. We were able to get them to be a sponsor at SOTW.. More to come.

Originally Posted by vandy021

A lot of R & D. A lot of testing other peoples products and the beefy additive packages that leave a coating help for start up. That's why they have gone to the stronger ZDDP and higher additive packages to coat the engines. As I have stated. We have run engines out of oil and the Mobil 1 still held up.

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

I was asked if I know anything about Pure Power Oil...here ya go..

Did you find any info on Brad Penn? (Penn Grade 1) ???

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

You engine guys finally are on the right page....it takes a good synthetic base with lots of ZDDP to significantly decrease wear...that's why the builders tell you to use it..it prevents problems and finally they relaize it and probelms mean unreliability and it costs them $$.

Mobil-1 V-Twin 20W-50 has the highest base/flashpoint and no added polymers to "beef it up" for heat resistance...probably the best detergency package of the premium synthetics...but it also has the best anti-corrosion additive package I know of and engines can be stored for months and the film does not come off...that means no dry starts folks...no other oil offers this to anywhere close to the extent this product does...it is an amazing formulation....it is my favorite offshore engine oil because of all this. I have a reputation to maintain. :D

The other is a great product but it has to be #2 on the list with some of the others. The Valvoline product is not that different from Amsoil or RP racing in ZDDP content. M-1 V-twin has the most amount of ZDDP of any oil out there. I also understand the Valvoline product has viscosity enhancers..polymers..they can shear down under heat.

Originally Posted by Don Tamm

Hydrocruiser, what is the shelf life of the Mobil 1 V-Twin?
Or any canned oil?

Thanks,

Don

Originally Posted by Rage

Hydrocruiser,

Mobil-1 V-Twin 20W-50 sounds like the perfect oil for racing and storage. Are there any 'cons' other than price relative to using this oil as a direct replacement for the standard Mercruiser 25W40 oil in general use: Max oil change interval 100 hours or every season comprising week ends of wake boarding, cruising, occasional hot laps for a 496HO?

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

The only bad thing about Mobil-1 V-twin is the wierd feeling you get using a "motorcycle oil labled product" but once you know what is in the bottle that goes away fast. I would use it in the sense you described easilly for 50 hours and then I would check and have an analysis and TBN done to be sure before going the additional 50 hours.

Originally Posted by Rage

Hydrocruiser,

I am a rookie here, what is a TBN and where or by whoom can I get this done and what do I look for to know if things are good or not?

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Blackstone is one I have used but there are others as well. The analysis will show if the oil is relatively free of excessive contaminants like metal or water etc and then the TBN will allow them to tell you if the oil's additives will allow continued use. It is a half way point check. The test results come back in a week and they will send you a free collection and mailer.

You really only need to do this as you are extending all the way to 100 hours...most here go about 25-50 hours. 100 may be a lot but who knows until you test.

Originally Posted by Rage

Hydrocruiser,

Thanks for the good info. I will do as you suggest.

You mentioned that the Mobil-1 V-twin oil is for motorcycles. Does the Mobil tech line recommend this oil for replacement of the Mercruiser 25W40 oil?

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

I don't like the word "replacement"...a close "substitute" would be Straight weight 40 oils like Kendall.

M-1 V-Twin is a Super Premium Synthetic oil...it is an oil that can't be compared to conventional oils... really. It is a straight weight 50 high grade base that pumps like a 20wt when cold.. with all the good stuff as far as additives go...total high tech formulation...and Walllyland has had it for $7/qt or get a distributer to sell it to you for about the same.

Your bearings will be happy and your engine too. I would bet you could go about 75 hours on it...let me know if you try for a hundred with testing.

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

From Blackstone:

JIM: The sodium in your oil is either coming from antifreeze or sea water, depending on how this
engine is cooled. In either case, it probably should not be there, but at least it doesn't appear to be
hurting anything. Most wear was lower than average, and the above-average copper is a result of
lingering wear-in at bronze parts. It should improve with time. The 1.0% fuel isn't a problem at this
level. The TBN read 7.2, still lots of active additive left. Check back in 20-30 hours. Hopefully sodium will drop.



509 Marine Engine NA

Oil Kendall GT1 20w50 Dino
Oil added 1 qt
Hours on oil 20
Hours on unit 200 approx
Date 7/20/2005

Aluminum 2 6 (Universal average is second number)
Chromium 1 2
Iron 17 22
Copper 53 39
Lead 6 186
Tin 1 2
Moly 67 31
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 0 4
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 2 1
Boron 11 40
Silicon 7 13
Sodium 56 16
Calcium 1941 1171
Magnesium 37 686
Phosphorous 851 791
Zinc 1016 928
Barium 0 1

SUS Vis@210C 77.4 82-95
Flashpoint F 365 385
Fuel 1% <2%
Antifreeze 0 0
Water 0 0
Insolubles 0.2 <.06

I'm very pleased with these results. Motor's wearing good, oil is holding up well. Excellent additive pack.

Jim




Originally Posted by bglz42
20 hours on my baby, period! End of story, ain't going longer...



The UOA's I just looked at on BITOG (motorcycle UOA section , they kill oil about like a boat...) shows MUCH lower TBN's than 11 & 17 (those must be virgin numbers, Hydro?).

M1 15w50 usually shows 8 or so TBN on reasonable OCI's, and V-Twin showed 9.6 TBN after 22k miles. OK, but not spectacular.

My TBN started out as 7.5, and only dropped to 7.2 after getting the crap beat out of it. FOR MY PURPOSES, this oil is working great for my engine. Just look at those lead and iron numbers...




Thanks!



Jim



Motorcycles kick out tons more heat and shear so the TBNs don't crossover to marine engine numbers. We need more UAo's.

You are doing the right thing...20 hours and out...you knew you had more but why risk it? $2.00/qt it werks and you like it...

I used to use the same stuff for 5 years back in the early 80's myself before going to Redcap and later to V-twin.

If you forget everything about V-twin just remember it is very high in ZDDP almost double that of most conventionals. Worth it just for that alone. Your oil is great but V-Twin will kick your bearing temps. down enough to get an average of 10* lower oil temps. on the gauge. That is a huge reduction in main bearing temps. I have heard stories of having to go to coolers twice the size to get that kind of heat reduction across the board.

We have not heard of any other oil used on oso so far that can reduce oil temps by 10 degrees but M-1 V-Twin...by simply doing an oil change you get tons of heat relief. That's protection.

Originally Posted by Fountaineer

Guys,

What do you think of Teague Custom Marines recommendation that you do not use synthetic oil if you have a roller valvetrain?

He says it is too slippery and the rollers do not actually roll, but slide across and can eventually cause problems.

Originally Posted by minxguy

If the rollers are sliding on the film of oil, (I hope that it's on a film of oil. If it's not the oil has totally failed and now you are dependent on reserve boundry lubrication,ie: zinc and phosphorus). how can you have metal to metal contact to put a flat spot on the roller? Harley Davidson for years said the exact same thing about their cam bearings...the rollers would go flat if you use a synthetic oil so the motor company a did not recommend a synthetic lubricant. A couple of years ago-the motor company introduced introduced a full synthetic oil that can be used in all three components of a Harley, engine, primary, and transmission. No longer does HD say not to use a synthetic oil. The reason.....they now sell one. a synthetic lubricant is no more slipperier than a petroleum. That rumor started when synthetics were "new" and they weeped out of seals. That weeping was mostly due to the fact that the chemistry in the early formulations of synthetics were not 100% compatible with the seal material, which has also changed over the years. Least not forget that the corvette since since the 90's has had a roller set up using a synthetic engine oil right from Detroit. Even the new GM pickups have roller cams, and I'm sure some of their owners are using synthetic oils.

Originally Posted by bglz42

That was me posting on BITOG. Merc's oil is great stuff, (most likely the best conventional I've seen), but I'd never use it (OR ANY OTHER OIL) more than 25 hours in a BB marine engine. If I were to try to go 100 hours :eek: I'd definitely use synthetic. And test, test, test! These engines are TOUGH on oil!

Originally Posted by Hydrocruiser

I was asked a couple times on how long to run 15W-50 Goldcap in a stock 502 or 496 if you run moderately hard but only once in a while.

My best guess is that Goldcap Extended can be run about 30-40 hours before needing a change. I do know of a guy who runs it for 50 hours but does a filter change at 25 hours and fills the new filter up with oil as the old filter is removed. His filter is obviously installed "upside down".

50 hours with Goldcap extended is reasonable to consider in a boat that is not racing or running full bore a lot.

I was asked why I talk about Mobil-1 so much...well if you want a great product "off the shelf" at a great pirce. M-1 15W-50 at Walmarts in gallon containers comes out to $5.45 /qt. M-1 20W-50 V-Twin is $7.00/qt at Walmarts.

Most other synthetics go for more and up to $ 10.00/qt.

That's why. :D


I was again asked if the $7.00/qt Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin is as good as a $10.00 20W-50. The answer is yes and save $3.00/qt. I have not found anything that beats it. It flows well in cooler weather...protects like a 50wt in hot weather...it has the right anti-wear and special anti-corrosion additives. It is a hard act to beat.

Not everybody needs it...Goldcap is fine unless you run full throttle all the time or race.

Originally Posted by Rage

Hydrocruiser,

I checked my local Walmart. They had every possible Mobil 1 except the 20W50 V twin. Have you purchased any from Walmat lately?