Running the piss out of it could of lowered the percentage to 3%.

You don't know if it was higher than 3%.

Drives you nuts, doesn't it.

Ken

Yes, absolutely driving me nuts without a doubt!

Now I have to figure out where the heck the gas is coming from. Too much idleing. I don't idle. I cruise at 2500 - 3000 rpm's and wake board/tube at the same rpm's 90% of the time. And I had no gas in the oil the first two seasons with first the stock engine and then with cam and heads. Too rich A/F, again I don't think so since other than the initial break in (where only 2700 - 3000 rpm's were at 11.5 and the rest was 12's and mostly above that) the A/F recal has since been in the low 12's to low 13's? And this is a NA engine not a supercharged engine though I did have it built with ring gaps that would tolerate supercharging in the future.

One suggestion offered is that may be my rings did not seat in do to fuel washing the cylinder walls during breakin. I plan to do a leak down test to see if they are seated properly.

Any other suggestions? I am soliciting! I will move this effort to a new thread. Thanks for everyones time.

Bill

I know what I need now. A %gas in the oil gage. Anyone know where I can get one?

You are running a 1/2 ounce of gas per quart of oil.

At that amount can you smell its presence on a dip stick? i'd like to avoid having to run an oil analysis after every weekend running.

Bill, just a thought.....try another lab. At your next oil change draw two samples and ship to two different labs and then compare notes.

Ken

If you can't fix it use a double ester oil like Motul 15W-50 that does not mix with the gas and keeps it's oil interity.

You can try this oil too.........
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ahr.aspx

This will help protect with fuel dilution.

For the dead of summer it would probably be ok (just make sure the oil is good and warm before you start running full throttle), but I would think it would be a bit heavy at startup in the spring and fall.

Ken

Even though the initial viscosity is pretty thick, that straight 60 has a cold pour point of -33 degrees. It should be fine pretty much all year round. But Minx is right about making sure its warmed up before getting on it.

Why does a double ester oil not mix with gas?

Is this like oil and water, the two stay totally seperate in the engine crank case?

Well that is an option if I can not find/fix the gas dilution issue. Thanks.

I'd like to see that in writing/data sheet.

A double ester based GRP V oil will not hear down nor will it loose it's integrity even with some h2o mixed in.

Why would you want a "bubble" of gas floating around in your crankcase with the possibility of getting picked up and pumped to the bearings. Gas is a lousy lubricant and has no film strength what so ever. I would think this double ester product with a fuel dilution issue would be a recipe for potenial diaster. If I had a fuel dilution issue, I would want to make sure the fuel was absorbed by the lubricant and I would change my oil sooner.

Ken

Just thought I'd throw something out to all the regulars of this thread:

The point of threaded forums is so that information is convienently searchable. I used to keep up with this thread religiously, but it's gotten so big, it's always hard to tell where I left off. I can imagine how intimidating it is for someone new. Not only that, but much of the intial info is now irrelavent due to new product release. A new person would not know where to start.

I think it would be REALLY nice if everyone didn't keep trying to put ALL lubrication info in one very old thread. If each lubrication topic was given a new thread, it would be much easier to find a specific discussion (if you spend any amount of time in this thread, you will see there are really about 100 discusions that should each have it's own thread).

There is SOOOO much great info here, but the way the thread has been continued kind of defeats the point of threaded forums.

Good point.

Hydrocruiser,

I did not find anything on the motul web site about gas versus Motul mixing characteristics but it does say that the oil bonds with the metal versus relying on viscosity for lubrication.

http://www.motul.com.my/eng/fact_sheets/estel_oil.html

I presume that is what you were refering to and not that the gas would not mix with the double ester oils? Or?

High safety margin when the oil is diluted by fuel. Provides high oil pressure and limits

http://www.motorspotstore.com/300v15co.html

Here is the link and info...

As I had thought to your above statement, it does not mix with gas. And is $31 per quart or Gallon?

Thanks Hydrocruiser. Sounds perfect for my current situation. Statement "diluted by fuel" could be taken to mean that gas can be absorbed by the Motul oil but their additives, etc. are designed to resist viscosity reduction in the presence of fuel. I found no direct mention that fuel will not disolve in the oil. The link to their "technical information" appears to be dead.

By the way if Motul's base stock is ESTER what is the like term for the typical synthetic oil base stock like Amsoil or M1?

AMSOIL is 100% Poly Alpha Olephin and Mobil One is a highly refined petroleum product with PAO blended into it.

Mobil-1 and Amsoil are GRP IV Pao's. Atleast the $10.00/qt products are.

Motul and Redline are 100% Grp V. Double esters.


Esters have such a gigantic affinity to metal and extreme film strength that the gasoline has an extremely hard time finding it's way to the metal parts of the engine. It's like a chemical barrier to gasoline.


Now Motul is $15.00/qt but it's worth the $$ I feel if you idle excessively.

To monitor for gasoline let some oil drain off the dipstic onto a metal spoon. Light the sample...be careful and away from flammables....if you get an open flame it's gas.

Be careful!

I like the 15W-50 Motul. It is used for a full 24hrs in many LeMans race cars. It's a bigtime endurance product.

Run some and send a sample to check for wear numbers. (Iron/copper/lead)

Very interesting. Thanks.

Hydro

Is the Redline similiar to Motul? I see that it is a Group V, also. What is the price of Redline? Thanks.

Mobil 1 is a "full synthetic", a highly refined petroleum product with PAO base stocks. AMSOIL is a 100% synthetic, with 100% PAO base stocks.

Hydro, what are your credentials, are you a tribologist??? I was just wondering, since you seem so informed on oils.

Light a spoonful of oil? Really? To test for gas?

Is there an accepted oil industry test procedure to evaluate the wear resistance/viscosity characteristics of a motor oil when contaminated by gasolene?

I would say the best thing you can do is oil analysis. An analysis will tell you the viscosity of the oil, with or without fuel in it. But, really, you need to find the source of the gas getting into your oil, and just fix the issue.

Oh I totaly agree that fixing the fuel contamination is my first priority. I discovered very rich hot (not cold) engine AFR at idle rpm that I suspect is my problem. Once the ECU is recaled I will again test my oil to see it that was it.

I am just following my curiosity where it takes me on the fuel contamination versu oil performance question. Just trying to understand the source of the knowledge as to what type of oil base / modifiers / brand does what. More specifically is it theory or theory backed up by reproducable test results. I just want to be a knowledgeable buyer when I try to pick the best oil for my motor.

Hydrocruiser,

Re: Motul 300V racing oil you mention below, was included in the Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper posted on their web site. For the most part it displayed expected performance and was ranked #2 over all by Amsoil. However one test result in particular caught my eye that was a total surprise in the light of this oil's heratige, FZG ASTM D5182 Gear Wear Performance (pages 14 & 15 of report attached). I was expecting very low gear wear but instead rather high (among the oils tested) gear wear was the result. Can you shead some light on this apparent paradox with a double ester oil that is used in Lemans endurance type racing?

Tongue in cheek with that one study...:)



I used to work in an industry that used research papers to support product use.

We always had to show several well conducted studies from the hypothesis to the conclusion.

Amsoil is showing "results"...

The test has to be double blind so nobody knows what oil is used and control oils need to be in place.

The number of vehicles studied needs to be high enough so as to attain a probablity stastic that the test was valid and the numbers mean something.

Usually for a probability statistic to be meaningful you need about 100 vehicles tested on each oil.


If the study is not funded by the manufacturer it is considered a less biased study.



Amsoil is a very nice GRP IV product as is Mobil-1. Several years back Amsoil products were GRP V products I understand.

It's all about profit when it comes to what base is used...and GRP V wins in my book.

These days they sell GRP IV products for the same cost of GRP V because of the lawsuit that M-1 settled which allowed a GRP III to be labeled "fully synthetic". Previously to the lawsuite a GRP IV/V ester were the lowest Grade Base that could legally have "fully synthetic labeling".

$9.95/qt for 20w50 and most other grades. Motorcycle oils mostly $12.95. Redline has an interesting, everything you ever wanted to know type, tech paper on their oil as well, copy attached.

I have seen a lot of used oil analysis samples from Redline and for some reason it was not all good. Why I do not know.


Amsoil/M-1/Motul/Penz Plat seem to give less wear numbers.

They are pushing their brand and who can fault them.

Also, Redlines pipes in the plant must be old as even new oil has some iron in it.

Mobil didn't settle, they lost to Castrol and it wasn't in a court of law. Mobil took Castrol to task on the Castrol using the word "synthetic" to describe their Group III base stock.


Ken

It's because of this lawsuit that I believe Mobil is a fully synthetic Group IV PAO. They are the worlds largest producer
of PAO basestock and then to "agree" with Castrol on "it's ok to use Group III's and call them synthetic" just doesn't seem it is something they would do.

They blend high quality stuff and will statisfy the requirement of 99.9 % of the users on this board.

Ken

The M-1 EP's are for sure GRP IV...I think they may have some GRP III's like Amsoil's XL series synthetic oils.


Still good oil.

And I was getting ready to switch to Redline.

In the various oil analysis of Redline you have seen are they most always higher wear than the others you name herein or only rarely higher wear than the others you name herein or......?

When higher oil analysis PPM wear results with Redline occur do they include iron , copper and lead or which of these?

The lowest combined wear I have recorded was with Merc 25W40 (stock 425hp), the highest iron, copper and lead PPM was with Mobil 1 20w50 V Twin (490hp and the main bearings were still the stock aluminum although new iron heads with tight fitting bronze valve guides were installed which could have played a role in the higher iron and copper PPM). Amsoil 20w50 Series 2000 Racing (550 hp and 600hp) oil was close or better than the Merc oil in iron PPM and slightly better than the Mobil 1 in copper and lead wear and that was with 5% and 3.8% gas content in the Amsoil, 1.5% in the Merc and 1.0% in the Mobil 1.

I should give the amsoil another try when I get the gas content down. Maybe Mobil 1 as well but I do not like their calling blends synthetic.

Give Motul 15W-50 a go.

Hydrocruiser,

More generic then. The Redline oil analysis's which were less than optimum, what area(s) was(were) the shortfall? Wear, viscosity,other?