so they filed for bankruptcy
08-16-2012 | 08:30 PM
#271
Registered
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 6
Company number one probably owns the molds, and gets payments for their daily rental. Company number 2 does some other task. Company number 3 and 4, possibly 5 are gone, leaving company number 6 with nothing but debt, and just enough cash to pay their attorney to file bankruptcy. Somewhere in this mess are definitely more than one or two boats, quite obviously their state of completion was lied about for many months. I hope there is something at the end of the tunnel for those people.
I was going back through the various threads linked, and paying particular attention to those trashing the poor people that innocently became new Pantera customers, as well as some very nice, considerate comments from the owners. They are long threads, but when you read about them and try to follow them to their conclusion, it gets very painful. This isn't about bad business practices, or bad economies, or even bad luck. It's an incredibly well orchestrated scam.
Since they were sued for fraud, again, who knows where that leads. Obviously they have the money to live and race and whatever. The unpaid judgments are an indication of just how slippery people can be if they want to be. I would think that even the biggest Pantera supporter can smell the stink of this situation, and those that came before, from Miami to across the big pond. Though I'm sure they will do it again. I gather this is going into the third decade at least of some really rotten business scams.
I was going back through the various threads linked, and paying particular attention to those trashing the poor people that innocently became new Pantera customers, as well as some very nice, considerate comments from the owners. They are long threads, but when you read about them and try to follow them to their conclusion, it gets very painful. This isn't about bad business practices, or bad economies, or even bad luck. It's an incredibly well orchestrated scam.
Since they were sued for fraud, again, who knows where that leads. Obviously they have the money to live and race and whatever. The unpaid judgments are an indication of just how slippery people can be if they want to be. I would think that even the biggest Pantera supporter can smell the stink of this situation, and those that came before, from Miami to across the big pond. Though I'm sure they will do it again. I gather this is going into the third decade at least of some really rotten business scams.
Yep !!
At this point does it really matter what kind of boat they built.
Appears now that they enjoyed 460k of someone else's money to maintain their lifestyle.
08-16-2012 | 09:29 PM
#272
Registered
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 945
Likes: 15
I have been a Pantera fan for years and have owned 2 of them. Great boats, no doubt! BUT....to hear all this makes me sick to my stomach (like most honest people). I guess people side-stepped the rumors because they built a great product. OSO and my fellow boaters have really brought the company into the limelight (not the light you want to be in). Both my Panteras were used, so I never had to deal with the "new boat" woes as I am hearing lately from Pantera. Real shame...the Nunez family has spent their life building boats, but going about the business in a very bad manner (if all is true). I also remember a special 28 built around the mid late 90s called "Zepplin". It was a twin OB 28 w/special sinks built in the boat behind the bolsters. I recall this customer having issues w/getting the boat finished, picked it up unfinished and took to Edit Marine to get rigged. Just as everyone is saying..."Pick up your boat whatever state it's in and save your ass before you have nothing". This is a common practice evidently. Give the community credit for calling out the bad. People love to forgive...just make it right w/the customer and start fresh w/a new business plan. The consumers deserve it! Without the satisfied consumers...you have nothing. Just an opinion.
08-16-2012 | 09:49 PM
#273
Registered
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,224
Likes: 1
From: West Creek NJ
[QUOTE=no limits;3756090]I have been a Pantera fan for years and have owned 2 of them. Great boats, no doubt! BUT....to hear all this makes me sick to my stomach (like most honest people).
Know the feeling I seriously considered a Pantera, was waiting till I got my boat paid down because like most people that bought new I owed more than it was worth. I really could not do the pay to sell my boat thing, I am almost there now, was thinking 36 or 28 with high horsepower small blocks. I had heard some stuff but Joe's explanation's seemed reasonable I even stopped in and meet them they seemed ok.
Whats really weird is when I pulled up in front of the factory my phone rang, so I was outside talking for a few minutes. They did not know I was coming and did not know me.......while talking I had this weird feeling I was being watched. Kinda blew it off as I am a little paranoind sometimes but honestly they were probably trying to figure out who the hell I was and if I was sent there to see boat progress or something.
I guess we all know why the 36 at Duckys was finished / rigged at Checkmate.
Know the feeling I seriously considered a Pantera, was waiting till I got my boat paid down because like most people that bought new I owed more than it was worth. I really could not do the pay to sell my boat thing, I am almost there now, was thinking 36 or 28 with high horsepower small blocks. I had heard some stuff but Joe's explanation's seemed reasonable I even stopped in and meet them they seemed ok.
Whats really weird is when I pulled up in front of the factory my phone rang, so I was outside talking for a few minutes. They did not know I was coming and did not know me.......while talking I had this weird feeling I was being watched. Kinda blew it off as I am a little paranoind sometimes but honestly they were probably trying to figure out who the hell I was and if I was sent there to see boat progress or something.
I guess we all know why the 36 at Duckys was finished / rigged at Checkmate.
08-17-2012 | 06:15 AM
#274
Registered
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 945
Likes: 15
[QUOTE=Expensive Date;3756108]
Agreed on the 36 at Ducky's. Not being smart, but maybe they should just build the hull and decks and let other shops rig them. People seem to like the boats...so just sell them as blanks and let the customer take it from there.
I have been a Pantera fan for years and have owned 2 of them. Great boats, no doubt! BUT....to hear all this makes me sick to my stomach (like most honest people).
Know the feeling I seriously considered a Pantera, was waiting till I got my boat paid down because like most people that bought new I owed more than it was worth. I really could not do the pay to sell my boat thing, I am almost there now, was thinking 36 or 28 with high horsepower small blocks. I had heard some stuff but Joe's explanation's seemed reasonable I even stopped in and meet them they seemed ok.
Whats really weird is when I pulled up in front of the factory my phone rang, so I was outside talking for a few minutes. They did not know I was coming and did not know me.......while talking I had this weird feeling I was being watched. Kinda blew it off as I am a little paranoind sometimes but honestly they were probably trying to figure out who the hell I was and if I was sent there to see boat progress or something.
I guess we all know why the 36 at Duckys was finished / rigged at Checkmate.
Know the feeling I seriously considered a Pantera, was waiting till I got my boat paid down because like most people that bought new I owed more than it was worth. I really could not do the pay to sell my boat thing, I am almost there now, was thinking 36 or 28 with high horsepower small blocks. I had heard some stuff but Joe's explanation's seemed reasonable I even stopped in and meet them they seemed ok.
Whats really weird is when I pulled up in front of the factory my phone rang, so I was outside talking for a few minutes. They did not know I was coming and did not know me.......while talking I had this weird feeling I was being watched. Kinda blew it off as I am a little paranoind sometimes but honestly they were probably trying to figure out who the hell I was and if I was sent there to see boat progress or something.
I guess we all know why the 36 at Duckys was finished / rigged at Checkmate.
08-17-2012 | 08:29 AM
#275
The BAD Guy
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 1
From: Jupiter, FL
[QUOTE=no limits;3756244]
The problem with that its them they couldn't scam people out of all that money!
08-17-2012 | 08:45 AM
#276
Chevy-Harley fan
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,462
Likes: 4
From: Orlando, Fl. USA
[QUOTE=Expensive Date;3756108][QUOTE=no limits;3756090]I have been a Pantera fan for years and have owned 2 of them. Great boats, no doubt! BUT....to hear all this makes me sick to my stomach (like most honest people).
Whats really weird is when I pulled up in front of the factory my phone rang, so I was outside talking for a few minutes. They did not know I was coming and did not know me.......while talking I had this weird feeling I was being watched. Kinda blew it off as I am a little paranoind sometimes but honestly they were probably trying to figure out who the hell I was and if I was sent there to see boat progress or something.
Some people can smell a cop a mile away...........
Whats really weird is when I pulled up in front of the factory my phone rang, so I was outside talking for a few minutes. They did not know I was coming and did not know me.......while talking I had this weird feeling I was being watched. Kinda blew it off as I am a little paranoind sometimes but honestly they were probably trying to figure out who the hell I was and if I was sent there to see boat progress or something.
Some people can smell a cop a mile away...........
__________________
Pete
Pete
08-21-2012 | 01:49 PM
#278
Registered
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,544
Likes: 0
I have to apologize up front. i did not have time to read all the comments. i spent about 20 min so far but i have to get back to work however i had some insite and questions. (maybe already mentioned not 100% sure, i will try to read more later)
little backround on myself., my farther started Essex County Craftsmen here is salem ma back in 1974. i worked for him since i was a little kid cleaning the shop, stamping envelopes, scrubbing the toilets then as i grew older i worked the shop, and built duct work, then i got my drivers license and he put me in the field with his top mechanics, then i went to school to learn how to repair the machines so he put me to work with his top service technician, then once i had all the working part under my belt (about 10 years) he took me under his wing.
I worked with him or his other sales men or project managers every day, i sold jobs, messured jobs, bid jobs and ran jobs. i did this for a few years all while learning a little bit about the paper work end of things. in 2005 i became his top man and i was running 50% of the company.
in 2007 things began to go down hill, the crap was hitting the fan, the construction industry was crashing down and it was almost over night. we went from doing huge jobs with 30+ men to having men painting the floors etc.
we started to loose money every day. since 2005 it was planed for me to buy out the company and in a failing economy and failing business we made the transfer in 2009 and i bought the company and everything that went with it.
we hope things would get better but they did not. so here is where my question, comments come to play.
i had a choice to make. do i close the doors and go out of business and claim chapter 11 or what not. or do i pull up my shorts, toss on a tool belt sell some un needed things and make sh!t happen??
well i sold trucks i was not using and paid bills. i let guys go that i could not afford (not one person went without a paycheck when they where working) i turned the heat down, i shut the lights off, i canceled cell phones, i bought used tires for my trucks, i hammered duct, i insulated duct, i worked with the few guys we had left, i skipped buying a new boat, i skipped buying new sleds, i skipped buying a new truck.
and today Essex county craftsmen is still here and we are still working every day and making a few bucks. i still have my little boat, i still have my same truck, my guys are still driving there older vans/trucks but we are still here, bills are still paid, men never missed 1 penny of there pay check and my old man can stand proud that his hard work for 30+ years is still up and going do to hard work, wise spending and will power.
my old man has been retired for a few years now and loves it, i finally decided to buy myself a new sled (with money i had from long before the purchase of company (ps. i put a lot of personal money in to keep my doors open but it was what i had to do)
i guess my point of the story is if your family name, your family legacy, all you know and love is going down the Sh!t shoot. tighten up your belt, fire some one, stay late, sell a new truck or go cart, sell a personal boat, do something about it.
maybe its just me, and i am speculating a little bit here but im sure the family has a boat or 2 that is personal, im sure there cars are not junkers and im sure they have a spare or 2. not sure. however if all of these avenues have already been taken and you have done everything you can to prevent this, then i take my hats off to you and say great push and good luck in the future. and i hope you can make it right to the people that have trusted you with thereboats/money and provide them with the boats they are waiting for.
again on my list of things at this point i would have my 2 clients out 100k on top of my list and i would sell a boat or car or cancel my fancy cable and get basic cable and finish there boats and protect my name. but again, who am i. im just a basic hvac guy not world famous by any stretch.
and if all this has already been discussed i apologize for my statement
NOYZEE
little backround on myself., my farther started Essex County Craftsmen here is salem ma back in 1974. i worked for him since i was a little kid cleaning the shop, stamping envelopes, scrubbing the toilets then as i grew older i worked the shop, and built duct work, then i got my drivers license and he put me in the field with his top mechanics, then i went to school to learn how to repair the machines so he put me to work with his top service technician, then once i had all the working part under my belt (about 10 years) he took me under his wing.
I worked with him or his other sales men or project managers every day, i sold jobs, messured jobs, bid jobs and ran jobs. i did this for a few years all while learning a little bit about the paper work end of things. in 2005 i became his top man and i was running 50% of the company.
in 2007 things began to go down hill, the crap was hitting the fan, the construction industry was crashing down and it was almost over night. we went from doing huge jobs with 30+ men to having men painting the floors etc.
we started to loose money every day. since 2005 it was planed for me to buy out the company and in a failing economy and failing business we made the transfer in 2009 and i bought the company and everything that went with it.
we hope things would get better but they did not. so here is where my question, comments come to play.
i had a choice to make. do i close the doors and go out of business and claim chapter 11 or what not. or do i pull up my shorts, toss on a tool belt sell some un needed things and make sh!t happen??
well i sold trucks i was not using and paid bills. i let guys go that i could not afford (not one person went without a paycheck when they where working) i turned the heat down, i shut the lights off, i canceled cell phones, i bought used tires for my trucks, i hammered duct, i insulated duct, i worked with the few guys we had left, i skipped buying a new boat, i skipped buying new sleds, i skipped buying a new truck.
and today Essex county craftsmen is still here and we are still working every day and making a few bucks. i still have my little boat, i still have my same truck, my guys are still driving there older vans/trucks but we are still here, bills are still paid, men never missed 1 penny of there pay check and my old man can stand proud that his hard work for 30+ years is still up and going do to hard work, wise spending and will power.
my old man has been retired for a few years now and loves it, i finally decided to buy myself a new sled (with money i had from long before the purchase of company (ps. i put a lot of personal money in to keep my doors open but it was what i had to do)
i guess my point of the story is if your family name, your family legacy, all you know and love is going down the Sh!t shoot. tighten up your belt, fire some one, stay late, sell a new truck or go cart, sell a personal boat, do something about it.
maybe its just me, and i am speculating a little bit here but im sure the family has a boat or 2 that is personal, im sure there cars are not junkers and im sure they have a spare or 2. not sure. however if all of these avenues have already been taken and you have done everything you can to prevent this, then i take my hats off to you and say great push and good luck in the future. and i hope you can make it right to the people that have trusted you with thereboats/money and provide them with the boats they are waiting for.
again on my list of things at this point i would have my 2 clients out 100k on top of my list and i would sell a boat or car or cancel my fancy cable and get basic cable and finish there boats and protect my name. but again, who am i. im just a basic hvac guy not world famous by any stretch.
and if all this has already been discussed i apologize for my statement
NOYZEE
08-21-2012 | 01:57 PM
#279
Registered
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,544
Likes: 0
sorry for the book. and i also want to say that the pantra boat is a great great boat. my buddy has one and it is just a machine. no question about it these guys can build a boat. and my buddy has spoken to them and met them and had great things to say about them as a hole. so i do not want to crap on someone i have never met or anything. im just making an observation and statement.
08-22-2012 | 09:18 AM
#280
Registered
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 945
Likes: 15
I have to apologize up front. i did not have time to read all the comments. i spent about 20 min so far but i have to get back to work however i had some insite and questions. (maybe already mentioned not 100% sure, i will try to read more later)
little backround on myself., my farther started Essex County Craftsmen here is salem ma back in 1974. i worked for him since i was a little kid cleaning the shop, stamping envelopes, scrubbing the toilets then as i grew older i worked the shop, and built duct work, then i got my drivers license and he put me in the field with his top mechanics, then i went to school to learn how to repair the machines so he put me to work with his top service technician, then once i had all the working part under my belt (about 10 years) he took me under his wing.
I worked with him or his other sales men or project managers every day, i sold jobs, messured jobs, bid jobs and ran jobs. i did this for a few years all while learning a little bit about the paper work end of things. in 2005 i became his top man and i was running 50% of the company.
in 2007 things began to go down hill, the crap was hitting the fan, the construction industry was crashing down and it was almost over night. we went from doing huge jobs with 30+ men to having men painting the floors etc.
we started to loose money every day. since 2005 it was planed for me to buy out the company and in a failing economy and failing business we made the transfer in 2009 and i bought the company and everything that went with it.
we hope things would get better but they did not. so here is where my question, comments come to play.
i had a choice to make. do i close the doors and go out of business and claim chapter 11 or what not. or do i pull up my shorts, toss on a tool belt sell some un needed things and make sh!t happen??
well i sold trucks i was not using and paid bills. i let guys go that i could not afford (not one person went without a paycheck when they where working) i turned the heat down, i shut the lights off, i canceled cell phones, i bought used tires for my trucks, i hammered duct, i insulated duct, i worked with the few guys we had left, i skipped buying a new boat, i skipped buying new sleds, i skipped buying a new truck.
and today Essex county craftsmen is still here and we are still working every day and making a few bucks. i still have my little boat, i still have my same truck, my guys are still driving there older vans/trucks but we are still here, bills are still paid, men never missed 1 penny of there pay check and my old man can stand proud that his hard work for 30+ years is still up and going do to hard work, wise spending and will power.
my old man has been retired for a few years now and loves it, i finally decided to buy myself a new sled (with money i had from long before the purchase of company (ps. i put a lot of personal money in to keep my doors open but it was what i had to do)
i guess my point of the story is if your family name, your family legacy, all you know and love is going down the Sh!t shoot. tighten up your belt, fire some one, stay late, sell a new truck or go cart, sell a personal boat, do something about it.
maybe its just me, and i am speculating a little bit here but im sure the family has a boat or 2 that is personal, im sure there cars are not junkers and im sure they have a spare or 2. not sure. however if all of these avenues have already been taken and you have done everything you can to prevent this, then i take my hats off to you and say great push and good luck in the future. and i hope you can make it right to the people that have trusted you with thereboats/money and provide them with the boats they are waiting for.
again on my list of things at this point i would have my 2 clients out 100k on top of my list and i would sell a boat or car or cancel my fancy cable and get basic cable and finish there boats and protect my name. but again, who am i. im just a basic hvac guy not world famous by any stretch.
and if all this has already been discussed i apologize for my statement
NOYZEE
little backround on myself., my farther started Essex County Craftsmen here is salem ma back in 1974. i worked for him since i was a little kid cleaning the shop, stamping envelopes, scrubbing the toilets then as i grew older i worked the shop, and built duct work, then i got my drivers license and he put me in the field with his top mechanics, then i went to school to learn how to repair the machines so he put me to work with his top service technician, then once i had all the working part under my belt (about 10 years) he took me under his wing.
I worked with him or his other sales men or project managers every day, i sold jobs, messured jobs, bid jobs and ran jobs. i did this for a few years all while learning a little bit about the paper work end of things. in 2005 i became his top man and i was running 50% of the company.
in 2007 things began to go down hill, the crap was hitting the fan, the construction industry was crashing down and it was almost over night. we went from doing huge jobs with 30+ men to having men painting the floors etc.
we started to loose money every day. since 2005 it was planed for me to buy out the company and in a failing economy and failing business we made the transfer in 2009 and i bought the company and everything that went with it.
we hope things would get better but they did not. so here is where my question, comments come to play.
i had a choice to make. do i close the doors and go out of business and claim chapter 11 or what not. or do i pull up my shorts, toss on a tool belt sell some un needed things and make sh!t happen??
well i sold trucks i was not using and paid bills. i let guys go that i could not afford (not one person went without a paycheck when they where working) i turned the heat down, i shut the lights off, i canceled cell phones, i bought used tires for my trucks, i hammered duct, i insulated duct, i worked with the few guys we had left, i skipped buying a new boat, i skipped buying new sleds, i skipped buying a new truck.
and today Essex county craftsmen is still here and we are still working every day and making a few bucks. i still have my little boat, i still have my same truck, my guys are still driving there older vans/trucks but we are still here, bills are still paid, men never missed 1 penny of there pay check and my old man can stand proud that his hard work for 30+ years is still up and going do to hard work, wise spending and will power.
my old man has been retired for a few years now and loves it, i finally decided to buy myself a new sled (with money i had from long before the purchase of company (ps. i put a lot of personal money in to keep my doors open but it was what i had to do)
i guess my point of the story is if your family name, your family legacy, all you know and love is going down the Sh!t shoot. tighten up your belt, fire some one, stay late, sell a new truck or go cart, sell a personal boat, do something about it.
maybe its just me, and i am speculating a little bit here but im sure the family has a boat or 2 that is personal, im sure there cars are not junkers and im sure they have a spare or 2. not sure. however if all of these avenues have already been taken and you have done everything you can to prevent this, then i take my hats off to you and say great push and good luck in the future. and i hope you can make it right to the people that have trusted you with thereboats/money and provide them with the boats they are waiting for.
again on my list of things at this point i would have my 2 clients out 100k on top of my list and i would sell a boat or car or cancel my fancy cable and get basic cable and finish there boats and protect my name. but again, who am i. im just a basic hvac guy not world famous by any stretch.
and if all this has already been discussed i apologize for my statement
NOYZEE
