IMO......Formula may have a safety isssue with the hull/deck bonding.
02-12-2011, 02:17 PM
#121
Where am I hiding from this? I have said on multiple posts that if it comes to pass that Formula messed up, that I will jump all over them. and yes, if there are actual facts that prove an issue on Formula's part, I will post them on Boatfreaks. (which BTY isn't "my" site)
5 of 5 boats, and ONE picture that doesn't really show much. If I had a boat with a hull/deck joint failure, I'd have tons of pictures of the lack of Plexus, and the repair process.
The response from Formula that is printed below is pretty clear on what they think. Their boats are great, but like every boat, thye can make them better. There are tons of boats out there that use just screws and sealer to hold the deck to the hull. So Formula is heads above them already.
5 of 5 boats, and ONE picture that doesn't really show much. If I had a boat with a hull/deck joint failure, I'd have tons of pictures of the lack of Plexus, and the repair process.
The response from Formula that is printed below is pretty clear on what they think. Their boats are great, but like every boat, thye can make them better. There are tons of boats out there that use just screws and sealer to hold the deck to the hull. So Formula is heads above them already.
Z5.....go ahead and bury your head in the sand. Five of Five boats. I'm sure we'll see more boats in our own club this year. No broken fiberglass.......hull/deck needs repair. I'll get you some more pics okay? You can post them on your on your own BoatFreak site if you want.
Here are the last contacts with Formula I have had........and for those without PDF:
Norton,
Sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, I reviewed both boats while visiting Archer and had discussions with Dan and Dave relative to production line manufacturing in general and the deck/hull joint assembly specifically, i.e., how the assembly has evolved and improved through the years. I also shared with Dan some of our testing and experimentation and the changes in manufacturing that have resulted largely due to the inquiries of you and your fellow SCOPE members.
As to my impressions when looking at the boats first hand, I did not see anything that surprised me, i.e., given the previous descriptions and discussions of the issue. Was there room for improvement in both the design and implementation of the joint assemblies? Yes, on both accounts. However, I do not attribute the issues to defects per se. I believe a combination of factors contributed to the joints' separation, and I feel our offers of participation toward the repairs is commensurate with this position. As a production line manufacturer, we work within certain parameters and limitations, and the reality is we build our boats to general standards that may prove insufficient durability-wise when exposed long-term to more severe conditions and applications. What we've seen happen with your boats doesn't mean the deck/hull joint was defective; it does mean we need to make improvements (and we have) if we wish our boats to stand up better over time in offshore-type conditions.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Michael R. Boyd
Here are the last contacts with Formula I have had........and for those without PDF:
Norton,
Sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, I reviewed both boats while visiting Archer and had discussions with Dan and Dave relative to production line manufacturing in general and the deck/hull joint assembly specifically, i.e., how the assembly has evolved and improved through the years. I also shared with Dan some of our testing and experimentation and the changes in manufacturing that have resulted largely due to the inquiries of you and your fellow SCOPE members.
As to my impressions when looking at the boats first hand, I did not see anything that surprised me, i.e., given the previous descriptions and discussions of the issue. Was there room for improvement in both the design and implementation of the joint assemblies? Yes, on both accounts. However, I do not attribute the issues to defects per se. I believe a combination of factors contributed to the joints' separation, and I feel our offers of participation toward the repairs is commensurate with this position. As a production line manufacturer, we work within certain parameters and limitations, and the reality is we build our boats to general standards that may prove insufficient durability-wise when exposed long-term to more severe conditions and applications. What we've seen happen with your boats doesn't mean the deck/hull joint was defective; it does mean we need to make improvements (and we have) if we wish our boats to stand up better over time in offshore-type conditions.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Michael R. Boyd
02-12-2011, 02:38 PM
#122
It seems that Formula does not agree with you. However, they are offering you money to do the repairs even way outside of warranty, which IMHO is above and beyond what they have to do.
02-12-2011, 04:35 PM
#123
Charter Member #232
Charter Member
I don't think that Formula depreciates faster then other boats. The resale did take a hit while they did their no interest for X months and what ever else they did to get people to buy. Cigs, OL, Nortecs all start out at a MUCH higher price so they will resell higher. Formula has their loyal fallowing as does Cig. and so on. If you want a boat that holds its value better then any it would probably be a Superboat or a Pantera. Hell Specialized racing has won 3 world champions with a boat that is 24 years old! Superboat owners/buyers are like a cult. The just hold their value like nothing I have ever seen.
Zone 5. I think that Norts concern (and I hope that I am not putting words into his mouth), that he has said multiple times, is that he brought this out because he wants other owners to be aware of the possible issue and to keep a close eye out for it. Will all boats have this issue, I doubt it, but 5 out of 5 of the boats on the west coast that he boats with did. Now maybe because the first guy had the issue the other 4 checked their boats to find the same issue? Maybe now that other people are going to know about the possibility we will hear of others.
IMO Formula makes a good boat, but they have often times made HUGE errors in construction. Some examples of this is not capping bulkheads with glass, how many people have had to replace their transoms on their 311's and other boats. This could be another manufacturing issue. Maybe they have fixed it already maybe not. Lets just all be aware that the issue exists on SOME boats and as owners do out part to keep an eye on our boats.
Zone 5. I think that Norts concern (and I hope that I am not putting words into his mouth), that he has said multiple times, is that he brought this out because he wants other owners to be aware of the possible issue and to keep a close eye out for it. Will all boats have this issue, I doubt it, but 5 out of 5 of the boats on the west coast that he boats with did. Now maybe because the first guy had the issue the other 4 checked their boats to find the same issue? Maybe now that other people are going to know about the possibility we will hear of others.
IMO Formula makes a good boat, but they have often times made HUGE errors in construction. Some examples of this is not capping bulkheads with glass, how many people have had to replace their transoms on their 311's and other boats. This could be another manufacturing issue. Maybe they have fixed it already maybe not. Lets just all be aware that the issue exists on SOME boats and as owners do out part to keep an eye on our boats.
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02-12-2011, 05:00 PM
#124
Registered
Gunfight
Norts intent was not to incite a riot or gunfight. It seems that this thread is getting a little hostile. Believe me I have photos and videos. I also have videos and photos of the system Archer developed to to the repairs. I am hesitant to post all this because it will add gas to the fire and really is not necesscary. Our intent is to make owners aware of the issue, PERIOD. We could have turned this into a gangfight lawsuit but we did not. We have better things to do and in our cases there were no injuries or accidents. THATS ALL. If you do have a failure I will be glad to E-mail you the repair video and procedure free of charge.
Gold Member
02-12-2011, 05:53 PM
#126
Registered
Norts intent was not to incite a riot or gunfight. It seems that this thread is getting a little hostile. Believe me I have photos and videos. I also have videos and photos of the system Archer developed to to the repairs. I am hesitant to post all this because it will add gas to the fire and really is not necesscary. Our intent is to make owners aware of the issue, PERIOD. We could have turned this into a gangfight lawsuit but we did not. We have better things to do and in our cases there were no injuries or accidents. THATS ALL. If you do have a failure I will be glad to E-mail you the repair video and procedure free of charge.
I would post them,if you don't want to could you send them to me.I will not post them but would like to see them.
02-12-2011, 07:10 PM
#127
Charter Member #232
Charter Member
I would like to see the repair procedure. Maybe I will do my 311 differently. [email protected]
Thanks
Thanks
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02-12-2011, 08:57 PM
#130
Charter Member #232
Charter Member
Does anyone have any objection if I go through and clean out any of the banter that does not specifically relate to this topic? I think that with this looking like it may be more serious then we thought it is important that we keep it 100% on topic. Mostly I am thinking get rid of all the financing stuff?
Jon
Jon
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Last edited by Audiofn; 02-12-2011 at 09:12 PM.
