Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked what the current factory additives are in synthetic oils and some premium conventional oils:

Here are the "surface protective" agents:


Antiwear and EP Agent:

-Reduce friction and wear and prevent scoring and seizure.

-Zinc dithiophosphates, organic phosphates, acid phosphates, organic sulfur and chlorine compounds, sulfurized fats, sulfides and disulfides.

-Chemical reaction with metal surface to form a film with lower shear strength than the metal, thereby preventing metal-to-metal contact.

Corrosion and Rust Inhibitor

-Zinc dithiophosphates, metal phenolates, basic metal sulfonates, fatty acids and amines.

-Preferential adsorption of polar constituent on metal surface to provide protective film, or neutralize corrosive acids

Detergent

-Keep surfaces free of deposits.
-Metallo-organic compounds of sodium, calcium and magnesium phenolates, phosphonates and sulfonates.
-Chemical reaction with sludge and varnish precursors to neutralize them and keep them soluble.

Dispersant
-Keep insoluble contaminants dispersed in the lubricant.
-Alkylsuccinimides, alkylsuccinic esters, and mannich reaction products.
-Contaminants are bonded by polar attraction to dispersant molecules, prevented from agglomerating and kept in suspension due to solubility of dispersant.

Friction Modifier

-Alter coefficient of friction.
-Organic fatty acids and amides, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters.
-Preferential adsorption of surface-active materials.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

"Performance Additives"

Pour Point Depressant
-Enable lubricant to flow at low temperatures.
-Alkylated naphthalene and phenolic polymers, polymethacrylates, maleate/fumerate copolymer esters.
-Modify wax crystal formation to reduce interlocking.

Seal Swell Agent
-Swell elastomeric seals.
-Organic phosphates and aromatic hydrocarbons.
-Chemical reaction with elastomer to cause slight swell.

Viscosity Modifier
-Reduce the rate of viscosity change with temperature.
-Polymers and copolymers of olefins, methacrylates, dienes or alkylated styrenes.
-Polymers expand with increasing temperature to counteract oil thinning.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

"Protective Additives"

Antifoamant
-Prevent lubricant from forming a persistent foam.
-Silicone polymers, organic copolymers.
-Reduces surface tension to speed collapse of foam.

Antioxidant
-Retard oxidative decomposition.
-Zinc dithiophosphates, hindered phenols, aromatic amines, sulfurized phenols.
-Decompose peroxides and terminate free-radical reactions.

Metal Deactivator
-Reduce catalytic effect of metals on oxidation rate.
-Organic complexes containing nitrogen or sulfur, amines, sulfides and phosphites.
-Form inactive film on metal surfaces by complexing with metallic ions.


Not all oils are equal and you get what you pay for!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

..................notice how than zinc stuff keeps popping up in different places. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

ZINC is the magic bullett...it is proven to work in more ways than one.

M-1 V-twin has more than any oil in the world (1800 ppm) gotta love it!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Mix...and what will happen with 20W-50 V-twin and MX4T 10W-40? (equal portions of the two products).


Mobil says they are compatable for mixing if you need high Zinc and no friction reduction agents and an "inbetween viscosity"...both exact have the exact same additive chemisty..so it is reasonable and predictable with these two specific products.

You get a 15W-45 end result...I have tried this in a friends 496 HO and the pressures were perfect...ran great...sent in UAO's after 20 hrs..."no significant wear".

If I had stock motors I would be fine with doing this...especially in areas that have ambient temps. of around 60-70 degrees...you guys in Florida during the summer...V-Twin is your baby.

Mixing 15W-50 EP with it's polymers is not as good of an idea...different chemistry.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

FYI....10W-40 MX4T supposedly mixes well with conventional oil as well. I could see mixing something like Rotella 15W-40 with it in equal amounts...I know a guy who does with great results in a John Deer harvester. The heavy equiptment Deer guys love MX4T and V-Twin. I was on a blog that went on about how much longer they went before showing bearing wear.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Many have asked my official stance on naming a synthetic drive oil that is endorsed by me....this is my choice...after a year of working with boaters using several brands...this one keeps drives noticibly cooler...that will extend their life...it will not foam even with water and that is what destroys many drives. The Alphas and Bravos shift very smoothly. The product drains easilly...change it about every 50 hrs unless you race. It's what Teague uses and can see why! He is on the money with this product.


Universal Synthetic Marine Gear Lube SAE 75W/80W-90 (AGM)
High Performance lubricant engineered to meet the demands of marine applications. AMSOIL Universal Synthetic Marine Gear Lube provides:

Excellent Gear and Bearing Protection even when contaminated with 10% water
Reduced Friction and Wear
Rust and Corrosion Protection
Long Seal Life
Superior Foam Prevention

$7.70/qt from amsoil.com

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Just starting using the Amsoil in my drives. Since I have already paid to order the Amsoil products at a discount. What am I giving up by using the Amsoil product in my crank case, rather than Mobil?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Suggested Amsoil Products and Applications for Offshore Use:

Amsoil SAE 20W-50 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil (MCV) $9.10/qt
Very much equal to M-1 V-twin.

Amsoil Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil (TRO) $9.25/qt
Similiar to V-twin but has friction reduction agents.

Synthetic Heavy-Duty Diesel & Marine Motor Oil (AME)
SAE 15W-40 $ 6.55/qt
Nice for Small block offshore applications.

SAE 20W-50 Synthetic High Performance Motor Oil (ARO)$7.75/qt. Similiar to M-1 15W-50

4-cycle eggbeaters..SAE 10W-40 Formula 4-Stroke®
Marine Synthetic Motor Oil (WCF) $8.10/qt

HP Injector Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (HPI) $24.75/gal
Excellent for all outboard motors with a performance emphasis on modern direct fuel injected (DFI) technology.

Saber™ Outboard Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil ATOQT $8.95/qt
AMSOIL Saber Outboard (ATO) is formulated with exclusive AMSOIL synthetic base oils and premium additives. Can go out to 100:1 but I am personally not one to go out that far 80:1 is my personal max.

Universal Synthetic Marine Gear Lube SAE 75W/80W-90 (AGM) $ 7.70/qt

Series 2000 Synthetic Racing Grease, NLGI #2, GC/LB
$10.80/cartrige.

AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters Looks like EAO-24 is the Merc equiv. $15.75ea
(EaO Filters provide a filtering efficiency in
accordance with industry standard ISO 4548-12 of 98.7 percent at 15 microns, while competitive filters containing conventional cellulose medias range from 40 to 80 percent efficiency.)

Amsoil Gasoline Stabilizer (ASTBF) 16oz $7.65 treats 40 gallons of fuel before layup.

Amsoil Engine Fogging Oil (FOGSC) $5.45

Amsoil Engine Flush (AEFCN) $5.30
Use every season before draining oil.

P.I. Performance Improver Gasoline Additive (APIBF) 16oz $7.75
Ideal for both fuel injected and carbureted systems. Dissolves and removes fuel system deposits One ounce/10 gallons up to 6oz/gallon if gummed up.

Amsoil Series 2000 Octane Boost $8.80/bottle
Can boost octane up to 7 points depending on dose.

Amsoil.com sells WIX Oil Filters and they have a great marine dual bypass oil filter system. Their pre-luber is not bad for the money...but not my personal favorite. See Fred for that unit..

Amsoil Tattoo...priceless :p



Anyone can sign up to be a "dealer" for a nominal fee and get nice price reductions with no obligations.

You will not sacrifice anything using these products to answer your question. Amsoil makes good proven stuff. The only downside is dealing with online ordering and UPS delivery. No biggie,,,their promotional tactics look cheezy...but fortunately the products are not. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The Amsoil is expensive, even at dealer/preffered customer cost which is about $80 a case but that's much cheaper than street price per quart. I just order 2 cases, 1 for me and 1 for someone else.

The filters (yep, EaO-24's are them) are $12 dealer/preffered customer cost. Of course you have tax and shipping to toss in. Example, 1 case and 1 filter was $111 delivered.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Which Amsoil Oil do you use?
What application?
Like the new oil filters?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Still using the 20w-50 Severe Service Racing Oil (as labeled on the bottle) It's the TRO.

Application is a mild 540.

I'm on the first of the new filters but I can't really speak to how well it's working as I haven't done any UOA nor do I have any to baseline from. I know they look much better in the black. :D And I know that with the new TRO and the new filter, I'm using less oil, at 10 hours it still looks really good even though it's the first run with it so it's mixed with a little of the old oil. Oil pressure is more consistant, not as high when cold (was to high I think) and it the motor starts and idles much easy when cold. It used to take 2-4 starts to get it to keep idling. 1 start and it'll idle fine now.

The other case I ordered is for a friend with a NA 540 also but a little wilder making more power. He was/is also running Valvoline so we'll see if he can tell any difference.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sounds good...Amsoil deserves the attention we have displayed towards their products over the past few posts.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I got a call from an old friend who is now an oil mixologist...


He is mixing M-1 15W-50 EP with 20W-50 V-Twin....he got the UAO's back after 50 hours in 525's ...very hard use...the numbers showed the oil was about 60% spent and no significant wear...


Why did he mix those two? He wanted to add back in some friction reducers and cut the cost a bit...

Most synthetic blends are no different in some respects...mixing a straight 40wt with 15W-50 M-1 has been done with good results...

It's really hard to screw up it seems if you decide to mix and use your head a bit...

But it really isn't usually needed...only for those like me who like to play.

Just avoid mixing a 5W-30 and a 20W-50...the viscosities in mixing need to be close.

For you conventional users the kendall 40wt mixed 50/50 with 15W-50 M-1 is a good consideration.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Anyone going synthetic for the first time thsi season oil or drives?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I'm now running Mobil 1 15-50 in my blower motors. When I was running petroleum oils, I'd change it every 10 hrs. I now have 13 hrs on the M-1. Should I still be changing it every 10 hrs. (they run rather rich, I'm sure there's some fuel in the oil)

I bought the V-Twin over the weekend. I'm going to run it next change.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro,
Im using Mobil 1 15-50 EP in HP500s. If I need to add a quart and the local store is out of that exact oil, what is the next best thing to add or mix in??? The lower weight still staying in the EP (I think its 10-30)? Or try to stay with the same weight even if its not EP?? Just make sure you stay Mobil 1 synthetic and the weight is not as important?
Thanks

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Straight weight 40 mixes in very well.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Do I still need to change the Mobil 1 oil every 10 hrs?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am considering going synthetic this year. I have a pair of souped up 540's with about 50 hours. Have used nothing but Valvoline VR40 + wix filters changed every 15 hours. Boat at LOTO so most running is in warm to hot weather.

Is Mobil 1 15W-50 the ticket for maximum protection and engine life?
Or join the Amsoil club have 20W-50 (ARO) delivered to my door?
Should staying with Valvoline VR40 be an option?

I assume stay with the WIX filters (51060R) - yes?

Thanks.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I also have a pair of 540s NA and have break-in hours (2) currently with Valvoline VR 40. I have the same questions as the previous one.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If there is no gasoline in the oil you can go 15-20 hrs..it's the gas that is the problem...if the dipstick smells free of gas...keep going... :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The newest re-formulation of M-1 15W-50 EP is very nice ...no need for more unless you race.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

After 20 break-in hrs on 40wt..hit it with 15W-50 M-1...

That's what the Sterling guys say they do...it's good 'nuff for me. :p

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I have new twin 496 HOs. After the break in I plan to try V-twin.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sounds good...keep us posted!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro, Where in the scheme of things do the Penzoil products stack up ? Perhaps the conventional racing oil.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Twin 5.7 Vortec motors. Broke in with 20-50 conventional oil for 10 hrs. I have 52 hrs. with M1 15-50 and Wix filters.
So far this season they have not lost 1 drop in 32hrs, and the oil is still clean enough to see thru.
I also put M1 75-90 in the drives which I'm going to change just to check for metal on the plugs.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Penzoil conventional oils have a high parafin level which some liike and some dislike. It adds film strength but when it breaks down it forms sludge.

All in all the correct weight of Penzoil is usually good. Why racers prefer Kendall or Castrol generally I am not sure.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sounds great!

I am interested to know your experience with Mobil-1 gear lube as some members have used it with much success.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro,
If you mix in straight 40, does it have to be Mobil 1 synthetic? Here is the question. Is it better to mix in a lighter weight synthetic than the same or close weight non-synthetic?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Are you asking ....if I am runnig Mobil 1 (or another synthetic brand) and I need to add oil should I add an oil with the same viscosity that I have in my engine? Mobil 1 does not make an SAE 40. You can add anything you want. First rule..any oil is better than no oil. Modern day petroluem oil will mix with Mobil 1. You should try to use an oil with a viscosity equal to whats in the engine. Adding a thinner viscosity oil will have a greater effect on the oil in the engine ( % of change in viscosity to the light side) than adding a heavier oil. If you are running a 10-40 and you add 10-30, the 10-30 will change the final viscosity more than if you added 20-50. I would hope that nobody uses a 10-40.in a boat motor. I was using the viscosity for the sake of th example. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

From the little I know about "mixing" and producing a synthetic blend..my understanding is that usually a straight weight conventional is the base that the synthetic is added to..why I don't know.

If I were to play with Mobil-1 20W-50 V-twin and add a conventional product in a 50/50 mix I would use 40wt Kendall.
Same with the 15W-50 M-1. Something "inbetween" as the base in viscosity...not the "max".

I do not exactly know what you will wind up with but I would bet it would be a good blend and perform well.

...so when ya gonna do it? :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Okay guys...Mobil-1 15W-50 is no longer being offered by Wallyland at this time in quarts or bulk containers...'cept for the leftover stuff..why? .. who knows.

They do now carry Castrol Syntec Fully Synthetic Oil in the 20W-50 weight...black bottles.... darn good stuff and it specs out with the best 20W-50 synthetics as well.

Price...$5.56/qt in quart bottles only.

Great stuff...great price... :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The problem is if it is like the other Castrol Syntec oils it is mostly GRP III thus not a true "Full Synthetic".

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

At a retail of $5.56 I highly doubt that it can be anything else. A full PAO or Ester formulation would be at least 50% more. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thats a good price. I just was in Monticello last weekend and found the 15W-50 in quarts for $6.20. They had the 10W-30 in 5 quart containers for a lot cheaper but I went with the 15W-50. I bought all they had which was 3 - 6 quart boxes.

Hydro, If my motor has always had the Mobil 1 15w-50, is it ok to switch to the Castrol?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It is a Group III hydrocracked product.. it was a Group IV in 1997 before they reformulated it.

...however...the isomerization process they use makes it about as tough as many Group IV bases as seen in comparison to conventional oils and synthetics.

As we know there are many grades of Group IV bases. Amsoil has several for many viscosities and some border on Group III...while the Series 2000 and 3000 products border on Group V formulations.

FYI...the recent reformulation of V-Twin shows it is a Group IV with no ester Group V's. It still specs out the same.

The only true Group V. is Redline as far as I know...it's like $11/qt.

Why the reformulations? You tell me..

Castrol 20W-50 "synthetic"is a real good product..excellent additives...M-1 has the edge of course.. :p

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The Castro will work fine...