Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Some "Premium Oil Filters" sacrifice some degree of "filtration" for "flow"...a dual filtration set-up is worth a look for some who want the best of both worlds...Fred can hook you up with a good one I am sure...

Racing Filters:

-Fram Racing flows the most and has the highest burst capacity as well. They filter only average...but then again you change every 10hrs or after every race..so who cares..right? Flow is critical!!

-K&N filters more but flows a bit less...it is a good overall offshore engine filter unless you RACE at WOT all day long!

-Wix Racing has a bit more filtration than a K&N but very close.

-Mercury Racing filters are quite similar to a Wix racing they tell me.

-Mobil-1 and Amsoil SD filter extremely well and flow pretty darn good. They are a first choice for most who do NOT race and do not have hopped up mills.

-A/C Duraguard are well constructed...filter and flow well...and cost $3.99. Go figure...but NOT for racing!

Hope that sufficiently confuses you! :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It'll be interesting to see some test results with the new Amsoil filters.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That's great information, Hydro. What would you recommend that I use with 540s na using Mobil v-twin? I will be turning the mills at 5,800. Thanks.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Has anyone tested the ones from Billet Marine?


http://www.billetmarine.com/Our%20Products.htm

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I gotta tell ya..the $3.99 A/C Duraguard does a real nice job...and Mobil says their new M-1 filters are improved...so I would go with either depending on what you want to spend.

if you order Amsoil products might as well go with their filter.

Run hard..then go with K&N..Baldwin or Wix Racing or the Mercury Racing...

WOT all day long with a hopped up rig...then only the Fram Racing...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I know a guy who ran these on his Sterling...worked very good!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

As an AMSOIL Dealer I continuously review the specs the competing products and manufacturers. I have some info that may help when considering an oil filter for your pride and joy.

FRAM:
Single pass particle retention efficiency of the models is (per customer service):

HP1 98% at 40 - 50 microns max flow 10 gpm
XG8A 96% at 10 - 20 microns max flow 3-4 gpm
TG8A 98% at 10 - 20 microns max flow 3-4 gpm
PH8A 96% at 10 - 20 microns max flow 3-4 gpm

WIX: (per WIX website and filter rep at a filtration meeting)
51060: Standard Filter
Beta Ratio-2/20=13/23 50% @ 17 microns & 95% @ 41 microns
Max Flow 9-11 gpm
Burst Pressure PSI = 270

51060R: Racing Only Filter
Max Flow 28 gpm

AMSOIL EaO Filter: (per conversation with filtration engineer at corporate headquarters)
EaO filter line flows 9-11 gpm while maintaining high filtration efficiency (98.7% @ 15 microns). BTW: The AMSOIL SDF line of filters has been out of production since last fall.

Mobil 1: (per rep at Champ labs)
M1-303
98.7% @ 18 microns
50% @ 5 microns

Summary: Most people look for a balance of flow and filtration to some point. Some want more flow others more filtration. You will find that the standard WIX and the Fram Racing HP1 both filter and flow very similar. The WIX Racing flows the highest out of all the filters I could find. For filtration the Mobil 1 is very close to the AMSOIL EaO filters with the AMSOIL coming out on top. While it has the best filtration the AMSOIL EaO filters flow just as well as the Fram Racing HP1 filters.

I am not a fan of the reusable metal mesh filters at this time.

On a side note FWIW: I have provided both WIX Racing Filters and AMSOIL EaO filters to race teams that I sponsor and no team has had an oil or oil filter related failure that was brought to my attention.

Hope this helps or causes more great conversation.

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Wix..Amsoil and Mobil-1 all filter about the same from the data on the past post...good to know.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro - I have paid for an Amsoil membership because I am using the gear lube in my Bravo. What am I giving up if I use the Amsoil engine oil and filter? I was planning on using Mobil 1 and a Wix filter, but wondered if Amsoil's products are as good? I have new 540s and want to treat them right. Thanks.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

.................the micron rating on all the posted filters, are the ratings absolute or nominal? ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What are you referring to???

Nominal = 50% @ "X" microns
Absolute = 98.7% @ "X" microns

The AMSOIL filter is absolute at 15 microns and the Mobil filter is absolute at 18 microns. The rest will go by the specific data mentioned.

All the figures above show the specific Efficiency at the specific Particulate Size.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Amsoil 20W-50 Severe Service Racing Oil and their oil fliters are great...excelent choices.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes, thank you. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Mercury Mercruiser 25W-40 Synthetic Blend Engine Oil...What are some comments on this oil???

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

As with all blends you don't know the ratio of synthetic to conventional oil. In many cases it is usually only about 20% synthetic.

The Blend is for 4-stroke outboards that were shearing down the conventional oil I hear.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I read somewhere that Mercruiser oil has additive ingredients for the marine environment not found in regular automotive oil. Any truth to that and if so what it the ingredient?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

You need to be 100% sure your rings are seated before converting your motor to synthetic oil or you'll be pulling it back out of your boat.Everyone gives the example of chevy corvettes coming from the factory with mobil one but I have seen motors that were NOT fully broken in converted to synthetic too early and if the rings glaze she'll have high leakdown rates FOREVER,Smitty

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If anything it might have extra zddp which is crucial in flat tappet motors,Smitty

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That might explain the problem I had with my rebuilt engine. Thinking it was a roller motor, I didn't know it would of been a problem. Im sure glad I used Mercruiser synthetic blend on my new crate.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Here are some additives most premium oils have...Mercury has what I conisder to be a chemistry similiar to Kendall 40wt..in a sample we looked at of Mercury oil we found no special formulation as one might have expected...I feel the best oil out there because of it's tough base and extreme corrosion resistant formulation remains M-1 20W-50 V-Twin for the marine environment. No slam but Mercury is NOT in the oil business.

Characteristics of Additives
Additive Name Characteristics

Detergency & cleaning action Phenaltes, Sulphonates, Naphthenates Interacts with varnish or sludge to neutralize and solubilize.

Dispersancy PBI (Polyisobutylene) Succinimides Dispersants are soluble in the oil and have a polar end which attracts and binds to contaminants preventing settling and adhesion to metal surfaces.

Antifoaming Silicone Polymers (very low concentrations) Not really necessary for diesel engines in properly designed systems, but provides anti-foam in gearbox and also at the refinery during blending.

Pour Point Polymethylacrylate Used in SAE 30 grades and below to ensure point criteria are met.

Anti-wear load carrying ZDTP (Zincdialkyldithiophosphate)ZDDP (Zincdiethlydithiophosphate) Chemicals react with surfaces forming films which have a slower shear strength than parent metal.

VI Improvers Polymers of: Methacrylate Acrylate Olefin Styrene-Butadiene Increase in relative viscosity more at high than low temperature.

Rust and corrosion inhibition Sulphates, Thiourea type chemicals Chemically absorbed onto bare metal surfaces providing protection and neutralization.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I just bought a new Ford SUV...I sucked out a sample and sent it in for analysis...the oil in the engine from the factory was conventional 5W-20...had no anti-wear or anti-friction agents in it...it definately is a "break-in oil".

I believe in a break-in period before going synthetic in offshore boats and feel that 40 hours is about the right interval. Using Kendall 40wt would be my choice or of course the Mercury product.

After 40 hours or roughly 2 oil changes...it's time for a high ZDDP synthetic oil to assure long life and excellent performance.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thats not a bad idea. I use to use M-1 20W-50 V-Twin. But I figured I would play it safe and run the Mercruiser oil for warranty reasons. So just and case something went wrong I could at least say "its your oil" :evilb:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

In actuality in talking with Mercury they indicated that the only true oil related failures they see from time to time are from uneducated do it yourself boaters using a totally incorrect product or procedure such as:

-Non-detergent/non-additive oils that cost a buck a quart.

-Oil that is in the wrong viscosity range such as a 5W-20.

-Not checking the oil and running way below correct levels or overfilling and windage.

-Sludge from not changing the oil.

-Oil pump or line failures and system failures and addition of aftermarket products that failed.

Mercury does not do oil analysis to determine what brand is in the crankcase. The Magneson Moss Act forbids them to mandate what brand of oil you use (unless they provide it at no charge to you for life) or to inflict damages upon you for using another brand. So they recommend in their manual or if you call and ask that you use an equivalent to 25W-40 which is mostly a 40wt oil blended with 25% 25wt...so in essence it is a "37wt" oil. My opinion..a conventional blend oil such as 25W-40 is just plain stupid. I think you can safely round off to a 40wt. Now the additives in Kendall and Castrol 40wt oils are the same as Mercs.

If you think using their product will afford you protection in the event things go wrong...it won't.

FYI...Mercury told me they have never seen an oil related engine failure specifically related to use of synthetic blends or synthetic oils.

They will eventually have their own brand of synthetics as they are negotiating a deal with a provider much as Volvo-Penta has.

Remember...Mercury is NOT in the oil business...there is little profit in it for them and they know that "we" know where to get Mobil-1 and Amsoil. Mercury's Racing Teams usually have cases of 20W-50 Amsoil Severe Service Racing Oil in their transportation vehicles.


Remember...the same oil Merc says to use in a 4 cyliner 120 HP engine is what they tell you to use in the 1075's.

Sterling uses 15W-50 M-1 in their engines after much testing..that says a lot I think.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Very good info. I'll change back to the M-1 after Im sure this engine is broken in. I have about 10 hrs so far. So maybe another 30 hrs. then I should be OK

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

20-40 hours should be all that is needed for the engine to settle in. Break-in is usually best if you avoid excessive idling...long wot intervals...or short jaunts.

Best is cruise with a good run for 10 minutes initially they say and build up from there as you head towards 20-40 hrs.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thought I would share this recent experience.

My brother has a Pantera 24' with a highly modified 454 putting out about 550 HP.

His oil pressures were too low with 15W-50 M1 so he tried Mecr 25W-40 and they were about the same after a good run.
His previous experience with M-1 20W-50 was pressures were too high. I don't have the exact numbers.

So I had him try a 50/50 mixture of M-1 20W-50 V-Twin with
M-1 MX4T 10W-40 Motorcycle oil because it is the exact formulation as V-twin but a lesser viscosity.

The mixture probably yielded an overall viscosity equivalent to a beefy 40wt.

The pressures are great now...and both oils have a ZDDP level of 1800ppm which is the highest you can get.

This would probably be what I will use in my next offshore boat...please let those options hit the strike price... :D

Mobil told me that mixing these two oils is logical as the base and additives are equivalent.

What do you guys think?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The chemistries in both of the formulations are probally the same. I am pretty positive that Mobil wouldn't change additive packages on different viscosities, hell they own Infinum. You would have no problem with the blending of two different viscosities, what you end up with takes more than a guess. You need to know the viscosity of each oil at 210 F, know what percentage of each "flavor" is going into the mix, and then graph it on a two componet blending chart. then and only then will be able to say "I have a heavy 40 or a light 50" Not real heavy science but protocol non the less. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The Magneson-Moss act does forbid the mandate of OEM products but it is only for the duration of the warranty, not for life. As far as Mercury recommending a 25w-40, it's not that stupid. A 25w-40 will offer faster oil pressure than a straight 40 on start up in cooler mornings, (I am sure that there are boaters in the Northern part of the States who boat in April) and a 25w-40 being a multi-viscosity still needs polymer to be added to the blend. As we know polymer sheaing is one of the major causes of viscosity loss. With such a short viscosity spred from heavier basestocks and less polymer there is less shearing so the stay in grade performance is better. And because it is a 25w-40, it will have the same viscositiy as a SAE 40 at 210. But, and a big but, at temps above 210F the 25w-40 will thin less than the SAE 40 therefore offering better film strength than the straight weight. This is due to the polymers that were added to the formula to produce the multi-viscosity charatristics in the first place. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

A 25wt is still a hard cranking cold start oil in many parts of the country depending on ambient temp. It is a blend not an actual multi-vis..so it's more a straight 37wt oil they told me.
Supposedly they say no polymers added.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

A 25w is still "thinner" than a SAE 40 at any ambient temp. Probably not by much but it still will be thinner because it does meet a "w" specification where the SAE 40 does not. I would imagine that somewhere around 10-15 degrees above zero the SAE basically becomes a "candle" and stops pouring where as the 25w40 will continue to pour to 0 because it meets the w classification. If it were not a multi viscosity, Mercury could not label the bottle as a 25w-40. It would have to be labeled an SAE 40. As far as no polymers.........are they using a 40wt base stock and a pour point depressant to achieve the low side performance? If the Mercury oil was a straight "37wt" which by the way is just a number, there is no SAE viscosity spec for 37wt , how does Mercury get the oil to a 40 grade? You can't call a heavy 30 (which a 37 wt would have to be called) without adding some sort of viscosity improver or a blending in a heavier basestock. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I verified with Merc today that their 25W-40 does not contain polymers that expand with temperature. "It is a blend of straight weight oils that behave similiar to a 25W-40". Blackstone Labs calls it a "37wt oil". I call it marketing.

"They do not specifically recommend conventional multi-vis polymer containing oils" (as the polymers can shear down quickly and you can be left with a 20W oil)... but rather only a straight weight oil such as a 30wt in cool regions and a 40wt in warmer regions and a 50wt for flat out racing. They further stated they are now testing synthetic oils.

Now my case for Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin

It is a unique straight 50wt oil. (I got that straight from Mobil's chemists). It pumps like a 20W-50 because synthetics with high base stocks have lower pump rates.

It is in my humble opinion because of this and the extensive anti-corrosion and long termed storage film strength retention. The best oil for any marine engine... as it flows like a 20wt..protects as a 50wt at all times....has zero polymers...and the highest (1800ppm) ZDDP levels of any oil I know of with a flashpoint of 518*F and outstanding detergency...and no friction modifiers to potentially raise concerns of "flat-topping"..... it is what I call "The Beast in the Black Bottle".

You can mix V-twin with MX4T because both are straight weight oils....both are unique in that fact as they pour and pump like a multi-vis.

FYI: 15W-50 M-1 does have polymers in it to get to a 50wt under heat... BUT... being a synthetic it will not shear down like a conventional multi-vis can.

Why pay top buck for a conventional oil when you can have something to brag about in your oil pan?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

OK, so Merc addressed the blending of the 25w-40 by using a heavy base stock and a pour depressant, no polymers. Perhaps that's the truth, who knows. What bothers me is, if the sample of Merc oil tested by Blackstone labs was new, unused oil and the lab came up with a 210 F viscosity of 37, which tells me that it is a heavy 30 wt, this particular sample did not even meet the viscosity on the label. The label says that the product inside is a 25w-40 and it is not. People are buying this thinking it's a 40 at 210 and they are getting short changed. What you should post is the actual SUS or cST viscosity of the fluid and see how it compares to the industry accepted specs set by the SAE, not some number like 37. I don't call it marketing, I call it sad, misrepresentation, and against the law.

The wrong polymer in the wrong application can shear down and have the oil end up it's original base oil. I will buy that.

Mobil's legal dept would never allow the marketing dept to put a straight 50 in a bottle and call it a 20w-50. If the bottle says 20w-50 the product is multi-viscosity. You are claiming 2 different classifications of viscosity. Extremely hard to do with a straight 50 base stock, synthetic or not.

You can mix MX4T and V-TWIN because they both have similar chemistries, not because they are both straight weights (which they are not, see above). If you wanted, you can mix straight weight and multi-vis oils. Having similar chemistry is the best way to approach this, so try to use the same brand but............as a rule of thumb the public doesn't.

The only type of lubricant that doesn't shear is a straight weight....because it does not contain polymers. All polymers shear, quality ones just don't shear as much. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I hear ya ...but fact can seem stranger than fiction somtimes. Your points are noted Ken.

As you know MX4T and V-Twin and non-API rated products...while 15W-50 EP is a multi-vis API rated oil...it does have polymers in it...but didn't shear at all after 40 hard offshore hours in a 502 mag last summer.

The question remains...is Merc's 25W-40 API rated? I think not...but not sure...I think that API vs Non-API ratings is the legal loophole.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It's getting heated..........

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

....gotta love a good debate :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro, I am holding a bottle of MX4T and V-TWIN. The MX4T says API SG,SH/SF and JASO MA. The V-TWIN says API SG, SH/CF and also JASO MA. The V-TWIN has diesel ratings on it because HD recommends a diesel rated oil if you cannot get OEM. As far as the rating on Mercs product, I don't think they would have to put one on because "it's the product that they recommend". Like Harley did years ago with their "360 rating". Like Polaris does with their AGL, no API rating or SAE viscosity, It's what they recommend.........................What bothers me more than anything is that Merc has 25w-40 on the label and according to Blackstone the oil is a heavy 30. The product is out of grade before you turn the key. I guess you get what you pay for. I probably wouldn't buy a outdrive built by Exxon/Mobil. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

..it does not have the API Service Symbol or Starburst on it...that's the loop hole?

What does the API Starburst Certification Mark tell you?
"The API Starburst certification mark allows you to easily identify those motor oils that have passed a comprehensive series of performance tests and product quality audits".


It may be one thing to print API specs on a bottle and another to get it certified ??

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

FYI..Wallyland has 15W-50 EP M-1 in Gallon containers again in our area.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I know this is swaying the discussion to a lower level, but how do I counter an engine builder who insists that I should use Valvoline Racing 40w and just change every 20-25 hours because the synthetics are harder on seals and I am just wasting money? If I do change, how long after break-in oil to change to Mobil?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Most feel breaking in on a conventional 40wt or Merc's 25W-40 is the way to go. 20-40 hours max. before going to syn oil.


Seals:



The first synthetic oils (and still some brands on the shelf today) did not have specific organic phosphates and aromatic hydrocarbons added into the products and as a result leaks were common. These additives cause a chemical reaction with the elastomer in seals to cause slight swelling and improve and/or maintain patency of the lubricant in the engine and hence avoid any potential for leakage or seal damage. (fyi....many conventional oils have always had these additives present over the last 25+ years.)

You know you are safe with Mobil-1; Amsoil; Penzoil and the rest of the BIG brand names. I hear that some syns like Redline Racing (non-detergent and non-seal additive containing) is one to watch out for as well as some less popular syn oils. .

One other comment...nobody on OSO specifically while using a synthetic oil has voiced concerns about leaks...we just don't see it happening in real life.

Synthetic oils are highly purified base stock products that can take a lot of heat and shear and not break down. They tend to have the best additives at the right doses. The motorcycle syn oils (ie. M-1 v-twin) do not have friction modifiers present and any worries of the oil being "too slick" and any subsequent problems potentially resulting are totally alievated.

It's all about myths or facts at this point.