Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Kaama's are cool :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I switched to the new Amsoil gear lube this season (can't believe I didn't gain 3 MPH like some have said they did. :D ) but I wonder if I should be running the Severe Gear simpley because I'm running close to 600HP through my B3 in my 3 ton tub. Although, when I drained the 2 season old Merc stuff, it looked good with no obvious sign of excessive wear. I'm pretty easy in the drive too though.

Ah, just one more thing to contemplate over the winter. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Actually, the AGM Marine Gear Lube is a thicker than the Severe Gear 75w-90 when cold (40C). The main difference that I see is that the Severe Gear has a VI of 163 vs. 130 for the Marine Gear Lube making the SVG become the thicker of the 2 warmed up (100C).

Compare the specs:
AGM - https://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/agm.aspx?zo=1132530
SVG - https://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/svg.aspx?zo=1132530

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

After going around in circles on marine gear lube I don't think you can do better than Mobil-1 75w-90. The only thing it dosen't have is the word "marine" on the package.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

How is the Mobil 75w-90 different than the Amsoil products? Are you able to purchase the Mobil product in local stores?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Kinda a rookie question i'm sure, but in the Mobil 15W-50, what exactly does the numbers stand for?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Would you prefer this over the merc high performance?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The Amsoil Severe Gear and M-1 are very similiar. M-1 lubes are sold in most auto staores.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

A good synthetic drive lube and showers will extend the life of your drive maybe 30% I have found in working with boaters in my area who used to use the factory product.

Ove-heating and bad seals typically are what cause premature drive failures.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Multigrade oils typically begin as base oils, such as 10W. Then viscosity-index modifiers (polymers) are added in an effort to stabilize the viscosity. This allows a 10W40 oil to flow like a 10W at cold temperatures and a 40W at higher temperatures.

The multigrade oils' viscosity modifiers are long-chain molecules that lessen the change of viscosity with temperature variance. In the past, the polymer additives (used to thicken the oil) were sometimes susceptible to viscosity loss. Permanent viscosity loss occurred when high shear forces (such as the relationship between the main bearings and the crankshaft) actually break the polymer molecules into less-effective smaller pieces. On a similar note, temporary viscosity loss also occurred when the polymer molecules aligned themselves in order to create a path of least resistance.

Fortunately, today's synthetic oil and additive packages have improved oil's shear-resistance. However, oils with the same rating from different manufacturers can exhibit different viscosity ratings in an operating engine, depending on the shear stability of their viscosity-modifying additives.

This means not all synthetic oils perform alike and the same goes for conventional oil too.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I noticed that when I bought it. I figured if they would only stamp "Marine" on the package somewhere, they could move the decimal point in the price one place to the right. :mad: :eek: :drink: :rolleyes:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I bought it at Auto Zone.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That is a very true statement. I think for 99% of us, Merc dino lube is fine. Drives don't last long when they are lubricated with seawater.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I guess i don't quite understand the theory on the changing oil weights. I just know for example, i run the 5W-30 in my truck in the winter because the 5w is thinner and will circulate the motor better on cold starts vs. say a 10w-30. But the 30 weight is a thicker weight, but when oil is hot, it isn't thicker, it's thin? Do you know what i mean?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Where does Red Line Shock Proof Gear Lube 'Heavy' weight rate for the Bravo X drive versus the others mentioned?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

From their website

"Heavy ShockProof™

A unique lubricant containing a suspension of solid microscopic particles as an extreme pressure agent--unique solid dispersion which cushions gear teeth to help prevent tooth breakage and allows the use of lower viscosities. Recommended for heavily-loaded racing differentials and transmissions, Off Road racing and problem gearboxes. The viscosity characteristics allow the lubricant to resist throwoff and provide a film thickness similar to a 75W250 grade, while providing the same low fluid friction as an SAE 75W90. "

Probably the ultimate gearlube, I found it to be messy, hard to find and very slow to drain. Ended up switching to M-1 75/90 as it is readily available

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes it is definately messy and slow to drain. I order it from OG Racing at 8.75$/qt at http://www.ogracing.com/eshop/home.asp?categ=69
If something just as good available that is not messy then I am interested.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

15W50 M-1

The oil flows like a 15W when cold and has the same viscosity of a 50W when hot (100 degrees c). Your engine thinks it got an oil change to a "straight 50W" when it got hotter dude.. :p


...AND since synthetics do not shear down due to their stronger base stocks.. you can use them in your go fast boat with confidence.. out to 50 hours too!

Simple. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If somebody can develope a device to monitor the drives for water... with a very load ALARM attached to the dash board you could probably make a lot of $$. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Merc has already developed an alarm for water in the drive. First it sounds like a griding noise, then followed by a series of loud clunks. :(

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

...and it usually works best on a nice sunny weekend with great weather continuing until it is rebuilt.

Then the rain clouds usually move in for a month or two....I have the same early warning detection system on my boat.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

OK people here we go for oil viscosity 101. For example....we will use a 20w50 motor oil for the discussion because that is what is mostley used in a boat engines on this site. You can substitute any thing you want for viscosity, the theory is the same. Now, first off, oil does not thicken with heat, it thins. Period. If you don't belive me, pour some 20w50 in a pan and put it on the stove, it will thin. (Oil left for extremely long drain intervals will thicken, we call this oxidation. A whole nother topic.) Conversly, oil thickens with cold, if you dont belive me take some 20w50, put it in your freezer and pour it out of the quart a day later. It will pour very slow. The "w" in 20w50 does not mean weight, it means winter. The 20w50 oil meets a 20w specification at 0 degrees. This specification is set by the SAE. The "50" in 20w50 is tested at 210F or 100C. This specification is also set by the SAE. Please note that there is no "W" after the 50. The SAE only has "W" ratingings up to 25W. As a side point the SAE does not recognize an SAE 70, blenders now call it a Grade 70. You would think that the "50" side in a 20w50 would be thicker than the 20w side but you have to remember that the two viscosities are at different temps, and oil viscosities do not go...0,5,10,15,20,25,30,40,50, 60,75,80,90,140. We are led to belive this with oil because we just don't know. When you start to introduce gear lubes into the mix it get real confusing. A SAE 90 gear oil has the comparitive viscosity of an SAE 50 engine oil, some of the heavier 40 weight engine oils will also have the same comparitive viscosity as a 90 weight gear oil. A 75w gear oil is equal to a 10W engine oil. You must remember that these viscosities are all rated at different temps and on DIFFERENT SCALES. Another interesting point is that all these viscosities have a range that the oil must meet to qualify as a particular viscosity. It woul be like we qualified people by height.........under 5 foot as short, 5-6 feet as med, and over 6 feet as tall, you can have 2 med people one being 5'2" tall and the other being 5"11" tall. Althought both of these people "qualify" by our definition as medium, there is a gross difference in them. The same applies to viscosity. One oil blenders 20w50 can be thicker/thinner than that of another blenders product. The SAE gives you a range to qualify the viscosity in. I personally perfer oils blended to the higher end of the range so when they shear the oil does not fall out of grade or it can handle more fuel dilution before falling out of grade. Some people make a big deal of additive content but your first line of defense against wearis viscosity. It is when this viscosity film breaks dow or thru we then rely on anti-wear additives. Another topic.
We can ramble on forever about this. The bottom line is use a product you are comfortable with. Yes some oils are better than others, but having an oil with a flash point of 400 plus degrees? If my engine oil reached 400 degrees I would have a lot more to worry about than the oil temp. Some oil temps on this thread aren't reaching 200F. I wouldn't use flash point as the only reason to purchase a lubricant. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Minxguy,

What are your thoughts on my experiences with Brad Penn 20-50 oil. (I've copied a previous post from another thread)



I'll share my experiences with Brad Penn oil.
Up until last summer (2005) I had been running Pennzoil 20-50 (engine builders recommendation) I change my oil every 10 hrs and it seemed to work pretty well, no oil pressure issues, oil temps @230 after an occasional hard run 260 (measured before the cooler)
Toward the end of last season I had switched to Brad Penn 20-50 and was not very impressed to say the least. In June I trailered over to Lake Winnipesaukee for Laconia weekend.I had just done a fresh oil change for the trip. We did a lot of boating the first couple days. After three days of running Brad Penn (8 hrs run time) I noticed a loss of oil pressure. My boat normally runs about 60 lbs after warm up while cruising. We were cruising along at no more than 4000 rpm when I noticed the oil pressure dropping. It dropped to 40 lbs, then 30 lbs, I backed down to 3500 and pressure dropped to 20 lbs.
I thought It was engine trouble and stopped for a while. Upon restart, oil pressure returned to normal, 60 psi but soon dropped back to 20 after temps warmed up to normal.
It appears that the Brad Penn oil was all done at 8 hrs and was breaking down at less than 220 degrees oil temp.
I've since changed to Mobil 1 (V-Twin) and all has been fine since. The Mobil oil seems to be pretty consistent, no pressure fluctuations at all and more oil pressure.

Take it for what it's worth, just my personal experience.

Kurt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I would guess the Brad Penn product fell out of grade. Reason being, when you let it cool down (oils get thicker) the pressure came back until you brought the oil up to temp. The results you are getting with Mobil are typical results with a high quality well built oil. Thats why I have been running Spectro's syn/pet blend product for the past 24 years. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

So to sum it up, the Brad Penn oil sheared (broke down?) after 8 hrs and was no longer a 20-50 spec? Is that what you mean by falling out of grade? Does this happen because of excessive oil temps? As I mentioned above the highest temps were 260 for short bursts, measured before the cooler.

Thanks for the reply!

Kurt

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thanks a bunch, very good. I had to print this off for a couple of people to read.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Simply.....yes. I would have been great if you kept a sample of the new Brad Penn and a sample of the old,used oil. You then could "see" what the original viscosity was (and where it falls in the viscosity range) when new and what the viscosity was when used. Your oil temp of 260 is not excessive.........over 300 is excessive. As you elevate oil temps, oil will continue to thin. A multi-vis oil will thin less than a straight weight (due to the polymer). As heavy as a 60 weight is (it is a thicker fluid than a 20w50 at 210), at temps over 210 (say getting close to 300), a 20w50 thins less than the SAE 60, offering more viscous fluid, therefore offering more film strength. If my oil temps we nudging 300 I would start looking at either changing my driving habits or an oil cooler with a thermostat to keep my oil at a min oil temp of say 180F. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

fyi...

Mobil-1 15W-50 EP

Merc HP 525

50 hours

1 month in pan

Redlined it 30% of the time

Wix Racing oil filter

Blackstone analysis: No significant wear metals found; oil was at initial viscosity compared to "virgin oil"; no water; additives were getting near reduced levels indicating a change was "on the horizon".

Can your oil do that? :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

This is a decent writeup but there is a couple errors.

The Kinematic Viscosity of an engine oil is measured in centostrokes (cSt) at 40C and 100C. The Saybolt Viscosity (SUS) is measured at 100F and 210F. No oil viscosities are measured at 0 degrees.

Also, thicker is not always better. There are plenty of cases that have one engine producing less wear metals with a thinner oil than with a thicker oil. People are often fooled into thinking that a thicker oil will protect better. Not always the case.

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

One disadvantage to the oil being too thick is it will retain more heat and more start-up wear from late initial flow..

One disadvantage to too thin of an oil is you do not get the cushioning you need and the parts wear a lot faster.

Suffice it to say in offshore motors calling for a straight 40 wt going to 15W-50 or 20W-50 is very safe.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes you are correct, the oil industry now uses cSt as the scale to measure viscosity of oil. That does not mean you cannot use SUS as a measurement also. Blackstone Labs does. It is easier to understand viscosity in measurement that are easy to comprehend, Saybolt Universal Seconds (SUS) are as you know seconds in time, right off a stopwatch. I think the average person can relate to this easier than trying to explain centistokes. We "collectively" understand MPH better/easier than say Knots or Kilometers per hour.
The SAE has min and max ratings at 0F of -17.8C for "W" rated lubes. They may not be used in the lab, but these numbers can give a customer a "feel" for the change in viscosity that a lube stock goes through from cold (0F) to the upper test temp of 210F. For example (using SUS) a 20w50 at zero degrees will take between 12,000-48,000 seconds (200-800 minutes) for 60ml (approx 2oz) to pass thru the viscosimeter. That same oil when tested at 210F will pass thru between 85-110 seconds. (1.5-2 minutes). Oil thins with heat.
I also agree with your and Hydro's statement of too thick an oil causing wear. I would not want to start my engine with an SAE 40 at 15F. In the time that it would take to get oil to the top end,you my expereince som engine wear, and over enough of these starts in cool weather, your engine is worn out.
I stated "use an oil you are comfortable with" IMO you can't beat a 15w-50 or a 20w 50 vicsosity is our application. Oil viscosity is your first line of defense against wear. Too thin and parts wear out. Ever wonder why they change the engine after qualifying at a cup race? They run super thin oils and they know that the engine would not last the duration of the race. I am strictly talking viscosity, additives are another story. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sterling Engines uses 15W-50 EP M-1 in 1,000+HP offshore engines that go in race boats.

Trust me...15W-50 synthetic oil is perfect. I would not say the same about conventional oil as they can shear a lot more.


Even Merc's 25W-40 blend is too thick for colder weather...ask them as I did.

M-1 15W-50 synthetic "pumps" like a 10W-40 conventional oil would.

Another synthetic "plus". :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Looks like Mobil 1 may now be making the 15w-50 EP with a majority of Grp III basestock.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...gonew=1#UNREAD

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That sucks, They did say that the 10w40 and 20w50 vtwin motorcycle oils are still full synthetic. I switched from the 15w50 to vtwin when they reformulated for emissions over a year ago, didn't realize they had cut the synthetic content also.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Can you guys take a look at these results and tell me what you think?

Start with the oil. 26 hrs on oil. 1 quart added @ 5 hrs on oil, filter changed and 1.25 quarts added @ 22 hrs on oil. Rebuilt 502 w/ 130 hrs on it, stock, carb'd. Merc 25w40.

http://www.mark8.org/users/sleeper/b...lysisend06.jpg

On to the gear lube. This is where i'd really like some input. I ran this gear lube all season. Merc HP gear lube. Any reason I can't do the same next year? I'd say a typical summer is 70-100 hrs for me, this year i only got 69 hrs in.

I took this sample without draining the drive. I took it from the top fill port with the little pump blackstone sells.

http://www.mark8.org/users/sleeper/b...eresults06.jpg

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Are double digit copper and iron levels acceptable?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I got the dyson analysis too, on the oil.

here's what he said

http://www.mark8.org/users/sleeper/boat/dysonoil.jpg

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The copper levels indicate significant upper valve train wear and the iron indicates fairly significant cylinder wear and additionally lots of wear in the lower bearings....I am most concerned about the wear taking place in the crankshaft bearings. Could lead to early failure.

Lots of fuel is getting into the oil...fix this fast! :eek:

A fact is that Mobil-1 (or any good synthetic oil) 15W-50EP can handle fuel dilution better and prevent this type of wear much better than conventional oil can.

When you check your oil sniff the dipstick for gasoline...if you semll gas change the oil immediately.

I am also wondering if you got a decent job done on your rebuild dude or not? :(

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I probably got ****ed on the rebuild. They changed management at the shop almost immediately after I got the boat back. But it's not a high HP build, just a stock rebuild. I have pics of what came out, if this motor pops and it doesn't have the same pistons, crank, and block when I take it apart as the one I dropped off, i'll be suing someone. It shouldn't be too hard for a supposedly reputable race shop (heads up racing) to toss rings and bearings in a big block, and have the crank cut.

I will be running synthetic next year. I will also try to figure out how to adjust the carb. I bet the idle mixture could be backed down a bit. The motor will get plugs and wires in the spring.

Do you have any opinion on the condition of the outdrive gear lube? Should I be changing it more often than I have been? I've been doing it annually.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The gear lube has little if any ZDDP anti-wear additives in it and your iron levels are very high showing significant wear.

Pull the carbs and get them checked out if not rebuilt or replaced. I would compression test the engine FIRST as a bad ring job can lead to fuel contamination as well and if it isn't right go after the rebuilder.

What lube were you running?