Re: Marine Lubrication
 

[QUOTE=sleeper_dave]Can you guys take a look at these results and tell me what you think?

Start with the oil. 26 hrs on oil. 1 quart added @ 5 hrs on oil, filter changed and 1.25 quarts added @ 22 hrs on oil. Rebuilt 502 w/ 130 hrs on it, stock, carb'd. Merc 25w40.

http://www.mark8.org/users/sleeper/b...lysisend06.jpg SD, the antiwear package is still very strong, well over a thousand parts per million of zinc and phosphous. Most auto products start at a thousand PPM. The oil has thinned to a very light 40, probably due to the fuel dilution. But, you purchased a 40wt and it came out a 40wt. It is what it said it was on the label. The range for an SAE 40 at 210 in SUS is 70 -85 seconds, your oil was at the low end. The fuel dilution has affected the lubricating properties of the oil no doubt causing some wear, but then you do mention the rebuild.?As a lubricant it has held up well. (From a viscosity and additive standpoint.) If you still have a fuel diluton issue, I would run a XXw50 next year. The 50 side of the lubricant can stand up longer to fuel. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Although there is no zinc in the gear lube there is phophous and molybdenum. I would belive that these two additives are the anti-wear chemestry in this gear oil. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What is "lubecontrol 20"?,a VI improver?,an anti-wear package? Does anybody know? What type of additive chemestry would Dyson pefer? Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

http://www.lubecontrol.com/

I think the motor is running a bit rich at idle, the plugs looked kind of black when I pulled them to fog the cylinders. I will be changing the plugs and adjusting the carb next spring. I'll probably also pull apart the carb and check for the proper jets, and maybe even do a compression test.

I plan to run the M1 V-twin 20/50 next year. I'll use the amsoil filter terry suggests, or an M1 filter. I don't think i'm going to try the lubecontrol, i might give the fuel additive a try. I'll change the filter, top off, and have an analysis done at 20 hrs. Hopefully it'll look a lot better.

here's the results from dyson on the gear lube:
http://www.mark8.org/users/sleeper/boat/dysongl.jpg

Outdrive was running the merc HP gear lube. I'll probably stick with that for the drive. 70 hours on it and it doesn't look too bad. Maybe i'll change it 1/2 way through the season next year for good measure.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Worth checking out..I may send a sample in.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

SO any new oil stories?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I have 360' of frontage with a ditch that is about 45* on one side. Only way to mow the steep side is with a cheap push mower of which I have ruined a couple due to the splash lubrication not working at that angle. On this last one I threw in some v-twin oil and to my amazement this mower has outlasted the previous two combined, both with similar Briggs engines.

It is a little slow to get up to speed when cold though :drink:

Hows that? :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yep. The wife prefers synthetic ... less friction :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Oh....

After I drain the Merc hypo oil from my OD, I save it and use it on the chain that runs the auger on my 3 pt. hitch 7 foot snow blower. Chain still has oil film on it at the end of winter :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

15W-50 pumps like a 10w...use it when it gets cold. V-twin is good down to 50*F. Much like a straight 40wt.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The best oil in bed...and I do know the answer from experience...is called Tequila. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I'm going to run the v-twin next year. I hope it's good lower than 50F, in spring and fall i'll be running on a few 40-degree days.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

A 15w is good to -15 degrees F. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

BTW, you can get the ° symbol by holding alt and pressing 0176. Or run "charmap" and insert it from there.

How do you determine what temp a particular weight oil is good down to?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sleeper Dave............Here goes,
0w -30F
5w -25F
10w -20F
15w -15F
20w -10F
25w -5F
Hope this helps. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Does this mean that with the exception of the noted 10w40 and 20w50 vtwin motorcycle oils all the Mobile1 oils are in effect "blends" of synthetic and petroleum base stocks?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It seems that GC testing has shown the M1 EP 5w-30 and 15w-50, so far, to be mostly GRP 3 basestocks.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

This was posted on a site that tests synthetic oils:

Ever since Mobil lost their lawsuit against Castrol (they objected to the fact that Castrol "synth" was made from Group III base stock instead of being truly synthesized), and the court decided that the word "synthetic" was related to oil performace, not exactly how it was made, most manufacturers of "synthetic" oils switched to using Group III base. Mobil 1 was one of the last holdouts.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Is there a compiled list anywhere that identifies an oil's GRP3 vs synthetic base stock content?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If the word "synthetic" was judged to be related to "oil performance" by the court, what is the "oil performance" that is defines a synthetic oil versus other? Does anyone know?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Can't speak about other oils because I don't use them, but Spectro Oil's full synthetic is still a group IV PAO, no group 3 at all. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

AMSOIL is also still a Group IV with adds of V with the exception of the XL line of car oils.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/motor...spx?zo=1132530

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The old Series 3000 and 2000 were GRP IV. I understand.

I am not switching to a GRP IV. personally over this.

If I see a flashpoint drop on a brand then I would be alerted to a possible concern. To date I do not see this happening.

Amsoil..M-1..Redline..RP...etc are all good.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Attached is chart of Blackstone Lab analysis of Mercury 25W40 and Mobil1 20W50 V Twin used in my Mercruiser 496.
It is not a good A - B comparison because the 25W40 was run 90 hours in a dead stock 496HO (425hp) and the Mobil 1 20W50 VTwin oil was then run 80 hours after the same engine had been converted to a Gen1 HP3 (~525hp) except the 5150rpm rev limit remained. Both were driven exssentiall the same. The only changes were HP3 heads, HP3 cam and HP3 valve train (except a lower load valve spring was used in lieu of the high load Nascar valve springs) and addition valve relief was added to the stock pistons (while still in the engine). The lower end of the engine was not dissassembled.

That being said I am still more than a bit surprised by the dramatic increase in wear versus the Mercury 25W40 and what appears to me to be generally high wear numbers with the Mobil1 20W50 VTwin oil versus the Blackstone "UNIVERSAL AVERAGES".

Comments/thoughts on these results are solicited.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

So you ground a valve relief into the pistons while they were still in the motor?

I'd figure a lot of your wear metals are from doing that. Did you do an oil change shortly after the modifications, or is that v-twin oil the stuff you put in when you got done hopping it up? I would think that the new cam and valvetrain would result in more metal in the oil.

Fuel is high and flashpoint is low, though. Tune issues, maybe? Or maybe the extra 100 hp just takes a lot out of a motor?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Good observation.

The reason the universal average is higher is because increased detergency specific to the product frees up sludge and metal particles thereby increasing "wear metal content" from a long time back.

We have known this for a while.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

FYI..I checked my sources and a trend is that there is a blending of PAO III. (highly refined) and IV. basestocks occuring to various degrees. Some synthetics are 100% GRP III. and some 100% GRP IV.

This does not worry me for the most part as synthetics still have the edge and the products are continuing to perform well vs. non-premium conventionals.

I suspect based on oil tests that it is safe to say that the more a product costs on average.. the more GRP IV. is in the formulation.

I would not "diss" a premium oil such as Mercury 25W-40 or Kendall 20W-50 as they work well and conversely would not say all "synthetics" are "equal" either.

As far as synthetics go the rule is the more it costs the better the product performs. You do get what you pay for.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I've followed this thread for some time, and I'm more confused then ever. I don't care what an oil change costs, if I can extend engine life, but I don't know what the best oil would be.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Amsoil Premiums/Mobil-1 EP & V-Twin/Redline/Royal Purple

Pick the right viscosity and you are good to go.

If you are paying $6-9/qt you got the good stuff in the crankcase. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

so your recommendation for a pair of 280 hour 502 mpi's would be what...this thread is confusing as hell...lmfao going to change out whats in there now when i winterize her with a basic 10/40...then in the spring (i already have wix filters) you'd use which...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Mobil-1 15W-50 EP

Amsoil Severe Service Racing 20W-50

Mobil-1 V-Twin 20W-50

RP 20W-50

Redline 20W-50

Take your pick.

My personal favorite is M-1 V-Twin.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, if the fuel is high, this could be diluting the oil reducing its viscosity..........less film strength=more wear. Machine work on the pistons in the block could = more metals in the oil sample, and finally a higher dertergent product could clean better, however you did change your heads which can "hold" a lot of crap. How did the top of the heads look when you changed them? Any sludge at all?
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Berns, when you change your oil for seasonal storage, change with the product you want to use in the spring. There is no need to change now and then change again in the spring with no hours on the oil. You will be wasting your money. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

OK, then I should expect to see a significant reduction in wear debris levels when I change the Mobil 1 20W50 that is in the engine now after an additional season of another 80 - 90 hours?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was fanatical about keeping contamination out of the engine during the conversion. The lifter/cam area and piston bores were continuously sealed with duck tape to include each piston as I cut (Isky tool) the additional valve relief depth. After polishing the heads and intake manifold all were degreased, power washed and high pressure air blown dry. The OE stamped rocker arms were also replaced with Crane roller rockers which should have helped reduce wear debris. Roller lifters were the originals. The engine ran all season fat at idle and lower rpm's but above that the A/R was dead on. Final ECU reprogramming is in process now.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Like I mentioned to Sleeper Dave I was fanatical about keeping contamination out of the engine during the conversion. The lifter/cam area and piston bores were continuously sealed with duck tape to include each piston as I cut (Isky tool) the additional valve relief depth. After polishing the heads and intake manifold all were degreased, power washed and high pressure air blown dry. The OE stamped rocker arms were also replaced with Crane roller rockers which should have helped reduce wear debris. Roller lifters were the originals. The engine ran all season fat at idle (~11.5 A/F) and lower rpm's but above that the A/R was dead on.

To answer your question the OEM heads after only 90 total hours on the engine (with the Merc 25W40) were very clean and zero sludge.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am still not getting it. How can "some synthetics are 100% GRP III"? Where/what is the performance standard/definition for the term "synthetic" that allows this? As a layman, I am hearing that the primary claim to fame for the "synthetic oil" is that it retains its viscosity much better that non synthetic oil. If that is true how is it again that "some synthetics are 100% GRP III"?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, its a definition. Group III basestocks are petroleum basestocks that have been more refined, bringing them "closer" to a synthetic basestock performance. No way are Group III and PAO's equal. When Mobil sued Castrol over the term synthetic, a court of law did not decide the outcome. This out come opened the door for blendeders to call an oil made with this highly refined petroleum oil a synthetic. There is no Group III PAO. PAO's are Group IV and only Group IV. You will be hard pressed to find a quality PAO synthetic for $5.00/qt.ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I would rather keep the cost out of this discussion until after I understand what is and is not defined as a synthetic oil based on performance and/or constituent make up of an oil.

I need a little more oil 101 instruction. "PAO" I take it defines only a 100% true synthetic engine oil. It also reads like "Group IV" also defines only a 100% true synthetic oil. It also reads like "Group III" defines only a true 100% petrolium based engine oil. Please correct me where I have it wrong.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

API base stock categories
Group I base stocks contain less than 90% saturates and/or greater than 0.03% sulfur, and have a viscosity index greater than or equal to 80 and less than 120 using spefic test methods.

Group II base stocks contain greater than or equal to 90
% saturates, and less than or equal to 0.03% sulfer. They have a viscosity index greater than or equal to 80 and less than 120 using the same test methods for each catagory.

Group III base stocks contain greater than or equal to 90% saturates, and less than or equal to 0.03% sulfer, and have a viscosity index greater than or equal to 120...

Group IV base stockes are PAO's


Group V base stocks include all others base stocks not included in Group I,II,III,IV


I am sure this does not help, but these are the classifications.

Ken