Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thanks Ken.

Actually this is exactly what I am looking for. Also got off my rear and did some searching and found ........ http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...f4_faq.shtmlnd ........which also helped me to better understand the 'Group' thing.

Now please help me understand the 'Synthetic' thing. Is it purely a marketing term with no true universal definition in fact?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Sorry, the posting seemed to cut out some of the URL. Trying again.

http://www.chevron.com/products/prod.../gf4_faq.shtml

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Once more typed with spaces to hopefully prevent auto abbreviation by the posting software.

www . chevron . com / products / prodserv / BaseOils / gf4 _ faq . shtml

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, here goes..............
Synthetic lubricant-lubricating fluid made by chemically reacting materials of a specific chemical composition to produce a compound with planned and predictible properties; the resulting basestockmay be supplemented with additives to improve specific properties.
Many synthetic lubricants, also called synlubes, are derived wholly or primarily from petrochemicals; other synlube raw materials are derived from coal and oil shale, or are lipochemicals (from animal and vegtable oils). Synthetic lubricants may be superior to petroleum oils in specific performance areas. Many exhibit higher viscosity index and thermal stability, and low volatility (which reduces oil consmption). Most synlubes offer longer service life and in some cases, better biodegradeability than conventional lubes.
PAO's are versatile lubricants with low pour points, and excellent thermal and oxidation stability; they have good compatibility with petroleum lubricants and most seals used with petroleum lubricants.
Did this help?

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes. If I am hearing right, it is a synthetic if it comes from a chemically modified oil regardless if it is a modification of a petroleum oil, animal/vegtable oil, coal, liquified natural gas, PAO's, ester based, etc. Conversely then defining what a 'conventional' petroleum oil seems to become more difficult since are not they also modifications of some base oil by addition of various additives to control viscosity, corrosion, as well as additions of dispersants, detergents, etc. Can you define how they differ?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

FYI..I learned today that most all $8-9.00 synthetic oils are still 100% GRP IV. PAO's.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Can you list the ones that are confirmed 100% GRP IV?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Should I then expect to see a significant reduction in wear debris levels when I change the Mobil 1 20W50 that is in the engine now after an additional season of another 80 - 90 hours?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am good but not that good. :D

...and even if I could it would not necessarilly mean they were better beacuse there are many factors that go into making a good oil.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Over time that is usually the case.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I guess this is a little less than the ringing endorsement that I was looking for. Given that the engine oil change history for my stock 496 was 1.) repalced the orginal factory oil and filter at about 10 hours with engine hot (boat delivered in Fall), 2.) replaced the oil and filter again at 90 hours after relatively mild usage with hot engine I have trouble imagining a huge reservoir of engine wear debris left over from an engine total of 90 hours of use with Merc 25W40 still waiting to contaminate future oil changes of Mobil 1 20W50. But maybe I am truely that ignorant.

Is there any true A vs B comparison engine wear debris test data that compares Mobil 1 20W50 versus Merc 25W40 engine oil?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

[QUOTE=Rage]I guess this is a little less than the ringing endorsement that I was looking for. Given that the engine oil change history for my stock 496 was 1.) replaced the original factory oil and filter at about 10 hours with engine hot (boat delivered in Fall), 2.) replaced the oil and filter again at 90 hours after relatively mild usage with hot engine I have trouble imagining a huge reservoir of engine wear debris left over from an engine total of 90 hours of use with Merc 25W40 still waiting to contaminate future oil changes of Mobil 1 20W50. But maybe I am truly that ignorant.

Is there any true A vs B comparison engine wear debris test data that compares Mobil 1 20W50 versus Merc 25W40 engine oil?[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are asking for and the reason I can not give you a definitive answer is because this is specific to your engine I believe.

Nobody has been able to help me despite several calls to better understand and help answer your questions better. You have a very good question and I hope we can find an answer.

I am being told you should repeat an oil sample to get additional data because one sample does not constitute a study. One needs several samples to see a trend.

Hope that helps.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

NEED YOUR HELP FAST!! it is 67 degrees outside and just put M1 V-twin in a 2003 chevy truck w/ the 496 motor. I am not an experienced valve guy, but it sounds like the valves are floating and rattling at start up, after it is warm and you give it gas, sounds like floating, after floating goes away, let off gas and sounds like floating again on idiling down. this happens with or without a load. AM i ABOUT TO DESTROY THE TOP END OR DAMAGE IT? SHOULD I DRAIN THAT OIL AND GO BACK TO M-1 EP 5W-30 AS PER MANUFACTURE?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Going from 5w-30 to 20w-50 is a steep climb.

More than I would be comfortable doing.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

drained it moments later! can I mix M1 5W 30 EP w/ any of the 20W 50 V twin I drained? & if so what ratio in st pete area for winter & summer? in winter we are rarely below 40 degrees & can wait until it is 50 or above. summer high 95 low 80. earlier posts may have answer but appreciate new info for myself & others I have reading this thank you

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

[QUOTE=Hydrocruiser]Thank you for your conscientious effort and comment. Much appreciated.

I must say you are starting to make me a little nervious with your " this is specific to your engine I believe " comment. Would your expand further on this?

Re the suggestion to repeat an oil sample for additional data, when is that additional oil sample to be taken? Now? After another season? Other?

Finally the most important question, is there any possible secenario where the Mobil 1 20W50 V Twin oil could be the cause of actual increased engine wear in a 496 engine versus the Merc 25W40 oil for which the engine is designed?

Thanks

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Going from a 25W-40 to a 20W-50 is not a big climb.


Many race teams use 20W-50 synthetics in their 496/502 engines. It sets a prescient.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

dont mean to hijack your thread but quick question...have you ever used engine restore in a marine application ? have used it in a few high mileage cars with good results ?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Re the suggestion to repeat an oil sample for additional data, when is that additional oil sample to be taken? Now? After another season? Other?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, we are talking base oils here ...not finished lubes, which have the additions of various additives. A Group III base stock is a highly refined petroleum stock. The refiners just remove more of the impurities from the petroleum basestock. This extra refining brings the Group III base stock closer to synththetics in some ways, but not the way the base stock was created.

Yes it is very difficult how you define a synthetic, Mobile took Castrol to court and lost. The definition has seemed to morphed into more of a performance level than a quality level of base stock. A Group III "synthetic" can no way hold a candle to a Group IV synthetic from a performance venue. As I have stated both of these base stock types receive additives to make a "finished" lubricant. The whole is equal to the sum of its parts
A synthetic basestock is one that is created chemically, NOT one that is highly refined petroleum.

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I know Spectro Platinum is 100% PAO.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes you can mix he two. At what ratio? I do not know. I guess I would start by throwing in a qt of 20/50 and the balance 5/30.
I guessing your valves were not floating, your lifters were making noise because they were not pumping up. A 5/30 oil will get to the lifters faster.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Oil needs to be labeled I believed to include basestock and levels of additives.

Consumers don't know what they are paying for.

...hello Ralph Nader.. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Or a oil rating system that acurately quantifies the performance merits/short comings of the base stock used in the oil being marketed.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, just remember that there is a quality level rating in place for finished lubricants.....
it is the API rating on the bottle. The SAE qualitifies viscosity. the API qualifies quality.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Ken, I am totally ignorant as to the merit of the API rating and I understand that the SAE viscosity rating is only for new oil? I am thinking of the oil rating short fall, as I perceive it exists from listening to you all, in that the difference in viscosity drop over time/usage of one oil versus another oil is not recognized by the current rating standards. That seems to be one of the main merits of the Group IV base oils versus the Group III and lower oils that I am hearing discussed. Am I wrong here?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Different subject, lower unit oil change intervals/oil testing. After the first season with the OEM LU oil fill I switched to the Redline Heavy Shockproof Gear Lube. Over many years of boating and using Merc LU gear oils I have become used to the darkening of the oils as they accumulate hours of use. After 80 hours of use the Redline HDSGL looked like new in color "pink". There was only the lightest coating of metal dust on the lower drain plug magnet and even less on the upper. This may have been left over wear debris from the OEM oil and the previous 90 hours of use.

How do I determine when I actually need to change a LUGL like Redline HDSGL? Will a Blackstone oil test provide a definitive indication? What is/are the key items on a Blackstone report to base the need to change decision? The Redline gives me a sense of security that I am using the best there is for the Bravo 1 but it is extremely messy to change.

Engine is a single 496 @~525hp on a 3700# 25ft and duty cycle is mostly cruising with occasional hot runs.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

API's (American Petroleum Instute) purpose is to set levels of additive performance with technical input from SAE and ASTM. These levels have to do with additives like zinc, detergent, deposit control, oxidation etc.
You are correct in the way you perceive the viscosity issue. The SAE only concerns itself with new oil, not used. Yes, one of the main merits of a Group IV is better viscosity retention over time.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, I would quess that the lack of color change is due to the synthectic gear oil not oxidizing as rapidly as the OEM petroleum. As far a drain interval, run the unit and the drain out X number of ounces (top off with the same oil that is in the lower unit) and ship it off for an analysis. The first thing i would look for is water, (the oil should have gotten milky though) and wear metals. I would doubt that a quality synthetic would fall out of grade that fast, but I think they also do a viscosity report.
Full synthetic gear oils can run in excess of 250,000 miles in over the road trucks. I would think it would hold up for 100 hours.
Personally, I change at the end of every season 25-30 hours.
I use Spectro full synthetic 75w-140 GL-5 and honestly I do not find it very messy to change. It seems to be no more messy than a petroleum 80w-90.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Ken, actually I was contemplating running the Redline ShockProof Heavy gear oil multiple seasons if it was retaining like new properties (that I could prove by analysis) and no water contamination.

I would hazard a guess that you have never used the Redline ShockProof Heavy gear lube. It is not like any oil, synthetic or other that I have experienced in that regard. Its nature seems kind of like a fluid RTV silicone caulk.

I will try the sampling and oil test you suggest at the end of next season.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Man, how I have missed this.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It's all yours. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I prefer to sell it and not get down to the molecular science of it. There is a point of overkill. BTW just helped someone get a drum of V-Twin 20w50.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

M-1 V-Twin has passed the test of time.

The right base; the right additive chemistry; outstanding film-strength that prevents hard starts and an anti-corrosion package that seems to be in a league of it's own lasting out to 6 months.

Only a drum? :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That's a lot of oil for a boater. It just became avil. in drums not to long ago

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

So you are the little drummer bouy? :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

How many gallons in a "drum" and what is the price?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

55 gallons. Where are you at and I can hook you up with a local Mobil distributor. I have hooked many up on this site.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

StLouis, MO.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Send me an e-mail and I will get you in touch with the distributor there.

Regards