Re: Marine Lubrication
 

tnks to both.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Citgo makes Volvo Penta brand oil I read too.

...oh Mobil-1 V-Twin 20W-50 is the best choice for a Harley...hands down.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

WELL, havin checked a dozen Walmarts and other auto stores in 5 states and still no v-twin. Any body have an alternative that is actually available? I would like to run it against the merc oil in an identical engine.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Just to let you know of some recent findings...

ZDDP levels are key to getting good UAO's and the more the better! A synthetic base handles heat better BUT if you compare a PAO synthetic with High ZDDP to a Conventional with high ZDDP and a strong base such as Kendall Racing 40wt...the main difference is you can run the non-premium synthetic longer.

So the Kendall Racing 40wt may see 20 hours...and a good PAO such as M-1 15W-50 up to 50 hours. Expect similiar UAO's.

Most of this is based on UAO's that a few of us did last season. Where as it does alter my perspective... "synthetic is the only way to go attitude" ...to see a real difference between Kendall Racing 40wt or Merc's product you need to move to a premium synthetic oil such as V-twin or Amsoil Racing. Then the benefit you receive is much lower oil temps and bearing wear ought be much reduced as well.

The real test then is a premium synthetic vs. Mercury 20W-40 and compare oil pressure...temps and send in samples for analysis. Run the conventional for 30 hours...and the premium synthetic for 50 hours. I suggest using a balanced flow/filtration rate filter such as WIX Racing or Baldwin. Don't skimp on filters.

You should tell us what kind of rig you have and the details and post an address for support of your project...you can count me in for $25...

V-Twin is pricey at about $9/qt...that's what I pay anyways....Series 2000 20W-50 Amsoil racing is the same price. Now Amsoil makes a 20W-50 V-Twin that they claim is better at their "scar tests" than M-1 V-Twin....Amsoil sells it for $7.45/qt...I think it is more similiar to 15W-50 M-1.

My money is on either Mobil-1 V-Twin or Series 2000 Amsoil Severe Service racing.

My usual .02

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Had problems finding enough V-twin. Advance would have about 4 quarts on the shelf. I couldn't find any at Wal-Mart until the other day when I spyed it in an area dedicated to Motorcycles. Thanks to Vandy for hooking me up with the Mobil distributor here. I just bought 10 cases. 7.26/quart. The distributor had no minumum but I bought that much for convienence sake.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Swing by a motorcycle shop and pick up Spectro Golden 4, tons of zinc and a very shear stable polymer. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Just a little clarification.

The new AMSOIL Motorcycle oil is the MCV 20w-50. This is the oil that claims better results. The retail price on this oil is $8.80 however I ignore that as the dealer cost is $6.25 per qt by the case of 12. Even lower if you get a drum.

The Series 2000 Racing 20w-50 has a retail price of $9.10 BUT the dealer cost on this oil is $6.70 per qt by the case of 12 qts. Also available in gallon jugs and drums.

I run the MCV in my HD V-Rod and have been more than happy with it. I support numerous race teams, most of which run the TRO Series 2000 and have not had any complaints about it.

Yes, I am an AMSOIL dealer but not typical. I have never sold a product for anything more than cost and pride myself in assisting people to get what they want at the best price possible. COST.

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If Mobil V-Twin and Amsoil Series 2000 are both Group 4 synthetics and both retail for $9.00/qt one would have to conclude that they are both fairly equal in finished lubricant quality. So the question that I have is...........how can Amsoil, who is a blender of lubricants, not a refiner like Exxon/Mobil, blend a full synthetic lubricant (Group 4 not a Group 3) that surpasses Mobil V-Twin and their own Series 2000 product in a 4 ball wear test (what this test replicates in a engine still baffles me) and retail the product for less money than Mobil V-Twin or Series 2000. Amsoil must have to purchase synthetic base stocks from someone and I would be very surprised if they can buy it cheaper that Exxon/Mobil can produce it. If Amsoil is using a Group 3 basestock and calling it a synthetic than it could retail for less than Mobil V-Twin or Series 2000 and thats not compareing apples to apples. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I can see how you are thinking on this. The truth is AMSOIL does have to go out and purchase their base stocks from different companies, including Exxon/Mobil. The benefit that AMSOIL has is that they are tied to one particular "brand" of base stock as say EM is. Do you think EM would go to one of their competitors to purchase a better base stock? By doing it this way AMSOIL can pick and choose from any base stock, from any supplier, that will meet their scrict requirements set for any particular product. Same situation as with the additives in some of the oils, they are purchased from many different locations as well and by doing this they can pick the best for each individual oil instead of being tied to only the ones they manufacturer like an EM would be. All AMSOIL motor oils are PAO or PAO/Ester with the exception of the XL line of auto oils which are a highly refined GRP III. By my suprise this XL oil has been showing equal if not better UOA results than some full synthetics, I actually have this XL in the wifes Saab right now.

The cost difference is simple in my mind. Operations and advertsing cost differences. AMSOIL is a tight knit facility in Superior, WI that has a few hundred employeed punching out the products whereas EM is spread across who knows where with thousands of employees. Also, the total advertising budget of EM is probably more than most expenses for AMSOIL.

I hope this makes sense.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I'm confused. If Amsoil has the benefit of being tied to one base stock mfg. why would they continue to outsource basestocks from different refiners. If Mobil needed a better basestock, I believe that they have the knowledge and finances to make it. These people are the global leaders in lubricant technology. If EM felt they needed a better mousetrap, they would build it. Amsoil probably has more EM/Infinum technology in their product than anyone is willing to admit.
Petroleum engine oils have come a very long way in the past 10 years. IMO synthetics excel in three areas for engines, longer drains, extreme cold pump ability, and maintaining lubricity in high heat applications. Without synthetic lubricants we wouldn't have jet aircraft or the space program. I am not at all surprised that a petroleum oil works very well in your wifes SAAB. A well built petroleum oil would work in 99% of any application. If the new Amsoil is a group 4 synthetic and performs better than Series 2000, why would anybody even think of buying Series 2000 and why would Amsoil continue to blend it? My final question is directed to you................if you are an oil dist how do you stay in business selling Amsoil products at your cost? Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

1. There would be no benefit to being tied to one base stock mfg. By having the choice of where to get different base stocks they are able to go to many different supplies and choose the base stock that they feel is the best fit for the particular style lubricant they are trying to produce. See #2 for a good example of 2 quality PAO synthetics with excellent chemistry that are aimed at 2 different applications.

2. When you speak of the "New" AMSOIL are you refering to the MCV Motorcycle 20w-50??? This oil is just that, geared towards a good result in motorcycle applications. This oil has an excellent wear ability, actually is the first motor oil that meets the requirements to meet the GL-1 gear oil rating. This makes it good for motorcycles that share engine oil with transmissions or for use in stand alone transmissions like Harley aircooled models. The anti-corrosion ability of this oil is another great aspect as most motorcycle are stored at least a few months over the winter, like boats are. Another concern with a motorcycle oil is to be sure that it is good to use in wet-clutch applications. This MCV oil has a JASO rating of MA which is the highest current rating for wet-clutch friction ability. This in my mind is what really sets this oil apart from the Series 2000 oil as the Series 2000 only has a JASO MB rating which "may" lead to wet-clutch performance issues. The Series 2000 also has a slightly larger ZDDP package that is all important in hard working applications. Simply 2 different oils aimed at 2 different applications just like say Royal Purple has their 20w-50 and a seperate motorcycle oil called "Max-Cycle".

3. How do I stay in business? Simple, this is basically an involved hobby for me at this point. I am a full-time respiratory therapist also. I started in AMSOIL because of the positive experience I had with it in my vehicles. I am involved with a few large motorcycle groups and they had interest in it as well so I took the plunge so we could save $$$ at that point and have really enjoyed it so I will see where it takes me. I basically enjoy helping people out by giving deals and seeing their satisfaction in that, it may come from my healthcare background. Remember when I sell at cost it is just that, at cost, it costs me nothing but with no return financially. I am fine with that, just trying to help a guy out. I do it you individuals and also have a number of race teams that I support that take advantage of my style of business. If you are thinking it is because of the MLM that is simply not the case as I have no dealers under me since I started.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

There is a price increase forthcoming AGAIN!!!.. Start stocking up. Val. just announced and I know my mother ExxonMobil shall be announcing soon...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yoy say that the anti-corrosion ability of the MCV oil is another great aspect of this oil, but what about the Series 2000 oil ? How does the Series 2000 oil perform from an anti-corrosion perspective compared to the MCV oil ?
Thanks

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I have not seen results of these 2 oils head to head but I believe that the MCV would be the better choice for anti-corrosion protection. I think that you will see some of the add pack in this oil heading to AMSOIL's other oils soon, especially the anti-corrosion aspect.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

M-1 V-Twin 20W-50 has 2 distinct advantages..

-Very tough corrosion control

-UP to 6 months storage without a dry start...very tough film strength..much more film strength than most any other they say.

Seriously..this should have a "Marine" label on it...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

June HOT ROD Magazine has a good article on Zinc levels in recent oil formulations and how it has affected Cam/Tappet wear. They suggested that these anti wear additives are being reduced and causing much cam wear. This damage was caused from low ZDDP oils in "automobile" non-racing oil.


Bottom line stick to the products I have mentioned...converntionals Mercury.. Kendall/Castrol 20W-50 or 40wt or M-1 15W-50 EP/V-twin or Amsoil Racing.

The HDEO's such as DelVac or Rotella ect are good too.

Buying a used boat?...find out what oil has been used...most conventional oils for cars are low in ZDDP.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Water in your oil?

A must read.

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com...g+Water+in+Oil

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

:eek: ummmmm ok :confused:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Simply put even a bit of moisture can ruin an engine and cut it's lifespan way down. Be sure your "marine oil" has a great anti-corrosion package in it. Time between use is a big factor.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was PM'd ...here ya go..


Oils with a good amount of Zinc..(zddp)

M1 V-Twin Zinc 1823ppm
M-1 15W-50 EP Zinc 1376
Amsoil 15W-40 Zinc 1360
Redline 20W-50 Zinc 1360
Rotella 15W-40 Zinc 1218
Kendall 40wt Zinc 1150
Amsoil 20W-50 Zinc 1410


Most everything else was either not tested or too low.

V-Twin rules !

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Does the Mobil oil filter M1-302 have a built in bypass? set at? If not, what is a number for the bypass version equivalent to L35399.

Thanks, Cant find much on Mobils site.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Actually engine oils were used in auto manual transmission way back in the 70's. All early Honda manual transmissions recommended 10w30/10w40 in their gearboxes. I would consider these to also be a GL-1 oil. API-GL-1 designates the type of service characteristic of automotive spiral bevel and worm gear axles and some manual transmissions operating such mild conditions of low unit pressure and sliding velocities that straight mineral oil can be used satisfactorily. Oxidation and rust inhibitors, defoamers and pour depressants may be utilized to improve the characteristics of lubricants for this service. Frictional modifiers and extreme pressure agents shall not be used. Sounds like any automotive engine oil will exceed these requirements.
As far as "MA" ratings...........motorcycle lubricant manufacturers realized many, many years ago that motorcycles that shared engine lubricant with a wet clutch had special requirements. This was all well and good until the auto industry pushed for SJ rated lubricants. It was with addition of friction modifiers to the oil that clutches started to be an issue in motorcycles. Some motorcycle lubricant manufactures refused to use SJ technology because of this potential issue. These manufactures were blending am "MA" rated product before there was even an "MA" rating. I wouldn't call "MA" the highest current rating, it is a rating that informs the consumer that the lubricant is OK for wet clutches, the other rating being "MB" implying that it is not good for wet clutches. It's not that one is better than the other, it just means they are used in different applications.

As far as selling at your cost........................can you open a Skater Dealership please. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The M-1 Oil filter bypass valve is an 18 - 22 psi differential pressure relief valve that will provide sufficient oil flow should the media become plugged or clogged.

Very good filter with excellent trapping and flow.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

does the 302 have this bypass? When I use that number on Baldwin or other sites, they list a non bypass filter as the equiv.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

First let me say that Mobil has improved the design and flow and burst capacity of all M-1 filters.

As far as I know the M-1 302 has a spring loaded bypass valve with a nitrile seal.

"All Mobil 1 Extended Performance Oil Filters contain synthetic fibers instead of the typical cellulose filter media. With a 99.2 percent efficiency rating (under SAE J1858 Multi-Pass Efficiency Test), the Mobil 1 filter is much more efficient than a typical oil filter, removing more particles per pass through the filter. In addition, the synthetic fibers in the Mobil 1 filter have less resistance to oil flow, reducing the potential for the filter to restrict the flow of oil to your engine".

By the way 18-22 psi setting of the bypass valve is just about where you would want it to be. Some oil filters are set at 8-11 psi and are in the bypass mode way too often. In a marine environment hitting the sticks hard and often requires a bit of a higher setting like the M-1 has.


The newly design filter they make would be a first choice for me.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

By the way.. I think the lack of friction modifiers in motorcycle oil such as M-1 V-twin 20W-50 is a plus. It has so much ZDDP wear will never be an issue and there is no need for friction modifiers except to meet mileage averages in "auto-manufacturer-land".

The lack of friction modifiers virtually removes the possibility that THIS synthetic oil will ever "flat-top" as Teague looses sleep over routinely.

V-Twin just has the right chemistry for this sport.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I just got results back (UAO's) from a 38' Scarab that has 502's with 250 hours. The guy used Mobil-1 15W-50 EP and A/C oil filters. Paid $60.50 for the oil and filters for both engines.

The sample was run for 50 hours and showed what the lab called "little if any significant wear" with the oil having the ability to continue to be used. No water present.

He did change it at 50 hours anyways...he could have gone 60 hours easilly.

Now the boat was run mostly at 55mph with occasional WOT's. I would call this "moderate offshore use".

So my take is in a non-blower or non-hopped up set-up with "moderate offshore use" 50-60 hrs is worth considering with Mobil-1 15W-50 EP. This scenerio shows the use of M-1 going "extended use" saves an oil change vs. converntional oil and is the same in cost or cheaper if labor is factored in and additionally offers more protection.

If you race or have a hopped up set-up then frequent conventional oil changes or V-Twin and 50 hours (so long as no gas is in the oil) is a consideration.

The results here proves the new reformulated M-1 15W-50 EP is a great product and what most folks need unless they race.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I found the Mobil V-twin on shelf at Advanced Auto $8.50. Where can I find this new Mobil filter?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I saw them at Murray's Autoparts.


Vandy can hook you up to a distributer and get you V-Twin for $7/qt I heard.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

$7.53 to be exact. I also have to factor in a round trip of 75 miles to pick it up. Still beats having to go into a WalMart.

Craig is "the man." Thanks for hooking me up, bud!

It sounds like I could get away with the 15-50 EP, but the V Twin oil is my new standard. I'll report out once I get it in and run up a few hours. I'm really hoping to gain some hot idle PSI's.

Randy

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

How do I get ahold of Vandy? I have break-in oil now, but will need some within a month. Thanks.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Well, I havent even been able to find any Mobil 1 15W 50 at any Walmart lately. Not even listed on the shelves anymore. :mad:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was at Napa the other day and noticed they have their own 15W50 Synthetic at around $4.50/qt. Anybody know who makes it for them?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I just ask my Napa guy and he said is it has a Napa label its made by Valvoline.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If you scroll back a few pages you will see his posts and can pm him. Craig is a great guy as is his family.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

V-Twin has been run as far out to 50 hours under moderately hard to hard offshore use and it did very well. So from what I see 50hrs with Mobil-1 15W-50 EP or V-Twin is being proven as a great consideraiton in non-blown engines. You blower guys dump too much fuel into the oil and need frequent changes...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am underimpressed with Penzoil or Valvoline's additives.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I doubt if NAPA is selling a true full synthetic (group 4 basestock) for 4.50/qt. My guess is that it is a group 3. Mobil is a refiner and they sell a full syn product for almost twice that. NAPA can't do it. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It's not that the additives are bad, it's there is just not enough of them. Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

They seem to blend everything the same..from automobile oil to racing oil formulations....

Many Valvoline formulations have 300ppm Zinc and 400 PPM Phos...very very low..expect an offshore engine to show lots of wear.

M-1 is usually at 1200 Zn-1300Ph

V-Twin 1800 Zn 1850 Ph

I would run conventional Castrol or Kendall before I ran Valvoline syn products.