Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Promise. :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Just send me an e-mail and I will get it to you that way.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Got another question...what engine builders recommend synthetics and which are saying conventionals?

Synthetics:
Volvo-Penta
Sterling
Illmor


Semi-synthetics:
Mercury marine 25W-40 brand

Keith Eickart recommends Kendall 20W50 for his $40k+ engines, as does Ritchie Zul. When Mercruiser came out with the HP1050SC, and recommended the Kendall, I was amazed!
But then again on many of these blower engines they are calling for 10 hour drains too. Lots of gasoline blows into the crankcase.

Stock motors are a different puppy.


I called around today and found that about 1/2 of the customers with expensive big engines us a 20W-50 synthetic product of one brand or another.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The 1050sci's were scrapped b/c of design flaws.

If Penske still owns any of Ilmor it would have to be Mobil 1. Ilmor of England used to build the engines for his IRL team.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am curious.....what engines in the 1000 HP range are "reliable" if that word is appropriate?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

none... or at least none that we have owned. :)

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

FYI...Fram and K&N

http://www.rexmar.com/page278.html

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I posted this a minute ago and already got an e-mail...

"Which filters would I use on an HP 525"...

Well each filter is a compromise..either you get great filtration or great flow...then we have filters in the middle....

The Mobil-1 has exceptional filtering as does the Amsoil SD and both flow about as good as the Mercury Racing filters from the data in the recent most study..

The K&N's flow excellent and filter good and is my choice over a Fram HP...if you feel your continuous "redlining" needs flow over filtration the K&N is for you.

So for a stock HP 525 not used in extreme service... it's a toss up between a Baldwin Racing or Mobil-1 for me...The M-1 will filter a bit better...the Baldwin racing will flow a bit better. Your call.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I received an e-mail on looking into what the best drive lube is....and will it extend drive life...

-Well I have come to a conclusion that the high pressure additives in most lubes are close if not equal though some use phosphorous and some sulfur or moly or a combination. This is not a deciding factor as the lubes "GL" rating's are very similar in the synthetic arena amongst all lubes.

-Most synthetic lubes are PAO's or Group IV. bases.. so the bases and physical properties are close...Redline has predominately Group V. ester base composition and that may be THE determining factor if you are splitting hairs.

-Most use anti-corrosive additives and we have little data to show one is better than another.

I would say to pick either Redline; Amsoil Marine; Mobil-1 or Royal Purple. We don't need to do as much homework with lubes as we do with engine oils. We are not dealing with gas contamination...combustion products plus heat and shear. We do have load forces to contend with and most all lubes have the right additives to deal with load.

Whereas water contamination is an issue... usually if the drive blows a seal... it gets a lot of water in...not just "10%"....so don't even factor that into the equation.

Going synthetic and putting on a good shower are key factors in increasing drive life by decreasing friction and heat.. along with using the "buttons" and taking off gently. Air time is a big factor as well...as well as weight and correct prop size. Being a bit under-propped takes a lot of load off and gets you on plane smoother. Don't over pitch or you will pay later...the worng prop can place undo load and stress on the drive...follow these simple guidelines and our drive will last longer.

Synthetic lube changes are cheap as the volume of lube used is only a quart or two. I would change the lube with every oil change or every 20 hours. If you see water you may save the drive and pressure additives get spent and become less effective. Most offshore boaters I know don't follow these simple steps and break drives sooner than later.

My .02

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

"My local Target has non-EP M1 for $3.87 per quart. They also have M1 EP 15w-50 at the same price".

Check it out. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Curiosity got the best of me. I have had a tractor with a 16HP Briggs Commercial V-twin engine running for 921 hours over the last 14 years. I had been using Mobil-1 15W-50 for 12 years and for the last 2 years Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin.

I ran the tractor for 21 hours over 2 months in 95*F heat and sent in a sample to Blackstone.

The report is kind of hard to read..here is what it says...

Report: Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin 21 Hours Service:
"Since this oil is still in place we suggest leaving it there for the rest of the season, and then resampling when you change it out for winter. 50-hours is the average oil use for this type engine, and the hours on which universal average wear is based. We have a feeling from the near-nonexistant wear levels, that you may be able to run far longer than 50 hours. Lead (3 ppm), from the bearings, was there, but nearly nothing else. Iron from the lined cylinders was only 1 ppm. The TBN of the oil was 9.7, so you have hardly touched the active additive in 21-hours of use. No harmful contaminants were found in this sample".



Here is the report:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked if I did a 30 wt analysis.

I never used 30wt personally...but..

My neighbor bought the same tractor and engine 14 years ago. He used B & S 30wt. His tractor engine lasted 9 years and had 750 hours on it. He had it rebuilt and now uses M-1 V-Twin.

My tractor engine has 921 hours on it and runs like new.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yeah,but the real question is: can YOUR tractor ride wheelies :D ?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Looks like it could be hard on the nads. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

For those of you that use Mobil Synthetic gear lubricants in your boats and personal vehicles, there will be a name change hitting the streets.

- Mobilube SHC 75w90 will be soon called: Mobil Delvac Synthetic Gear Oil 75W-90

- Mobilube SHC 80w140 will soon be called: Mobil Delvac Synthetic Gear Oil 80w140

- Mobiltrans SHC 50 will soon be: Mobil Delvac Synthetic Transmission Fluid 50

Quote from XOM

"or about October 1, 2005, we will begin selectively migrating our drivetrain fluids towards the "Mobil Delvac" franchise umbrella with the goal of creating more meaningful product names. The migration will be implemented in a phased approach with the first phase impacting select synthetic (flagship) power train products. Future phases and their impacts on products and timing will be communicated at later date. "

"Timing & Availability ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

. As stated above, implementation will be on or about October 1, 2005.
. This will be a running change and there will be no impact to current product availabilities.
. Sourcing, package sizes and pricing remains the same as today.
. There will be NO IMPACT on product formulation, performance or claims.
. Material codes will change and the new codes will be communicated on or about September 1, 2005. "

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

NOCO Energy Corp. located in Liverpool, NY recently (late June) sold me two cases for $40.00 ea. That works out to about $6.67 per qt.

BTW....with the V-Twin 20-50 my oil pressure stayed about the same as it was with the Valvoline 20-50 synthetic.

Oil temp DROPPED about 10 degrees.

Thank you gentlemen :D :evilb:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That's not too bad of a deal.. Some will be cheaper some will be more expensive. I just dump my price to be kind to the local OSOers! :) Glad to hear it worked.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If your oil temp dropped 10 degrees an engine builder told me the actual bearing temps may drop 2-3x that amount...

V-Twin M-1 is the best oil I have ever used. I use it in everything I can. If I need a lower viscoisty I use the 10W-40 M-1 motorcycle oil. Dosen't get any better. Period.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

vandy,

The price dump is appreciated. I was going to pm you about getting the VT from you. But seeing that I get oil in a small quantity {single BB and maybe about 35-40 hrs. per season} I did'nt think it would be worth the effort on your end.

What's the word on the V-Twin 10-40? I know a guy that is looking for the benefits of the V Twin 20-50, but in a lower viscosity. His oil pressure is on the high side, so he does'nt want to go with 20-50. Would the V Twin 10-40 be a good substitute? And would it help with oil temps as the 20-50 does?

Thanks

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro - That is good news about the bearing temp possibly being so much lower.

Another thing I was concerned about were seals in the engine. I was told that getting over 240* could cause damage there.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am not one to really condone mixing as who knows what you really get in the end. If the pressure is too high on 20W-50 use the 15W-50 Goldcap.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I have not heard anything about this.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I would go with the Gold Cap 15w50. I am not too familiar with the 10w40. We don't have many requests for the 10w40. Kindanova, if you want, I can get you an XOM distributor in your area. Just let me know. NY is out of my area of best effort, but I will do what I can. I have gotten several OSOers hooked up with XOM distributors.

GOOD LUCK! :drink:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Vandy, I have a distributor about 20 mi. from me but thanks.

I was asking about the V-Twin 10-40 on behalf of a guy in Maryland. I suggested that he read the info in this thread, as he is the one with the high oil pressure.

He's a big boy and all growed up so it's up to him now :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What's his oil pressure anyways? Everything can be relative. Also need to know what oil filter he is running.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/Products/Gear.htm

You can now see that Kendall is offering a Fully Synthetic Gear Lube 80W-90. It has a GL-5 rating and excellent additive package including anti-corrosion additives. It is a PAO based product and would be SIMULAR in base structure to Amsoil and Mobil in that respect.

Kendall also has added a Fully synthetic 5W-30 and 10W-30. They do not have a 20W-50 Synthetic yet.

I was asked what I would use and from the data I have reviewed my answer would be Royal Purple; Mobil-1; Kendall; Redline; Torco; Amsoil or Mercury HP.

Redline has an ester base and tons of HP additives. It has my attention and I would like more feedback on it regarding performance and any foaming issues.

It's hard to miss using any of these outstanding products.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I hear M-1 0W-20 buy 3 get 3 free at PepBoys....who knows.. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked what syn oils have a ZDDP level greater than .2

Answer:

Synergyn, M1 Racing, M1 motorcycle oils and Torco.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

On engine oil temps: (perhaps this was touched on earlier and I missed it) I was told that operating oil temps. above 220* (so that combustion moisture will be vaporized) but below 280* were acceptable for conventional oils and that synthetics could handle even higher temps. for longer periods. Anyone have any really reliable info. on this? --- Jer

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The moisture is combusted, but there isn't the level of oxidation like in an industrial application. Syns do handle higher temps for longer periods. The molecules are synthetic polymers which don't fall out as quick as a conventional oil. Mobil states "that the Mobil 1 is suitable for high-performance cars, particularly hot-running or heavily loaded vehicles."

Normally you will see a decrease in oil temperature and a decrease in pressure during idle. Sometimes you will see a higher HP at high revs due to the viscosity increase.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The oil temperature gets to at least 300*F as it goes around the cylinders and bearings and any moisture if present... instantly vaporizes......hitting the water boiling point temp. on your oil temp. gauge is not a measurement or a consideration in that regard.

Infact...oil is volitile...and it will "boil off" as well and get "thicker". This is measured in labs and oils are assigned NOAK volitility numbers. A synthetic oil will "boil off" much less than a conventional oil.

Sometimes you see the oil volume go down on the dipstick...this is in part from the oil vaporizing off.

Your engine temperatures will volitilize or "boil" off oil... don't you think it can handle a tiny amount of condensation? :D

If you want to worry about condensation you will see it more during the winter lay-up and storage process. I change my oil at the begining of the season for that reason.

This whole thing is a myth and has no factual basis. Water in the oil in any appreciable amount would be from a leak in the oil cooler or reversion. Reversion is not normal and the amount of water that is taken in is so large it usually can not possibly be "burnt off".

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Perhaps I was not direct enough in my earlier post. I did have a set-up at one time that ran so cold that it produced "milk-shake" on the valve cover breather caps. I raised the operating temp (oil temp to over 220*) and the condition went away. Now after a hard run I am seeing oil temps approaching 280* with synthetic oil. So does anyone REALLY know how high a temp we can operate at comfortably? --- Jer

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

This is from the "Lubrication Bible"....

"Almost one third of the heat generated by the engine must be removed by the vehicle's two cooling systems. That's correct, your engine has two cooling systems. (1) The top of the engine: the area around each cylinder in the engine block, the combustion chamber areas in the cylinder heads and the intake manifold, dispel heat through the engine's radiator coolant system. (2) The rest of the engine: the crankshaft, bearings, camshaft, lifters, connecting rods and pistons are only cooled by engine oil".



"The ideal operating range for engine oil is 180°F through 200°F. While operating within this range, the oil works as a lubricant, coolant, and cleansing agent in the engine. Modern engines generally run with radiator coolant temperatures between 200°F and 220°F with oil temperature ranges between 20°F and 75°F HOTTER. In other words, when the engine is performing flawlessly, the engine oil is already overheating! Oil that exceeds 220°F rapidly loses its ability to lubricate and cool causing accerlerated fatigue and premature component failure".

An oil analysis is key for you to know for sure what your engine is doing to the oil.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thanks Hyd. I was always under the impression that the info contained in your last post, 233, and I have seen, referred to fossil oils and not syns. But the suggestion to get the oil analysis is, of course the real answer. Why didn't I think of that? --- Jer

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes JP..the info in post 233 pertains to conventional oil tests and synthetics can handle more heat and shear...but an oil analysis is the only way to know for sure on an individual basis...you are running hot and hard...make no mistake about it.



If you are routinely running 280*F.. synthetic oil is required... you may or may not need to move up to a "premium synthetic oil" like Amsoil 20W-50 Severe Service Racing or Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin which can handle much more heat and shear than a conventional synthetic oil.

That is why I suggested an oil analysis to make that determination based on the results you get. You may find 15W-50 Goldcap is fine and maybe not depending on how hard you run at those temps.

An oil analysis will give you the answer and you may need to do a couple with a TBN to see how far out the oil will last.

I would send the first at 10-15 hours with a TBN and see where you are at with wear and find out how the oil is holding up too. Please get back to us if you do these tests.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

JP...I did some calling around to various synthetic oil manufacturers about oil temps. and here is what most agreed upon...

For a typical wet-sump engine, 250-300* F is considered extremely hot, synthetics, because of their molecular makeup, are better suited to withstand these temperatures.

The downside is that additive packages do tend to break down faster in high-temperature environments, so if you plan on running oil temperatures in excess of 300 degrees, this would mean changing the oil after every "racing" event.

Running 280*F for prolonged periods welcomes you to the 10 hour oil change club.

Have Vandy set you up to get a deal on 20W-50 Mobil-1 V-twin..or you can use...Amsoil 20W-50 Severe Service racing oil....you are a prime example of somebody who NEEDS it...you may be able to get 20 hours off it.

Only an oil sample will tell for sure. You are making french fries if you don't follow this advice...not an option..

wanna know my .02??

Your engine is set up to needlessly run too hot.







Period.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

OK; A bit more background here. I have used Amsoil 20/50 Racing but currently have Mobil 1 15/50 with Lucas additive in pan. Have Revolution Marine 3 X 18 oil cooler with remote Amsoil dual bypass filter system and #10 lines with no angle fittings. Everything is straight into where it goes. Std. Merc 143* thermostat and water temp NEVER exceeds 150*. Oil pressure maintains 40# at idle (700-800 rpm) after hard runs and indicated oil temp of 280*. Just how am I set up to run too hot? --- Jer

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

....ever try Mobil-1 V-Twin 20W-50?...everybody says it knocks down the oil temp by 10 degrees.

How many horse are you making? What displacement and compression ratio? What octane gasoiline? Where is your timing set to?

Waterpump...impellers etc. all highoutput and in good shape?
Can you go bigger to better feed the oil cooler?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Desktop dyno, about 625 HP : 548 CID : 9.2 / 1 : 93 pump grade : T-Bolt IV 34* @ 3500 : ALL KINDS of water from transom pick-up all the way through the system and as stated, "engine water temp NEVER exceeds 150*". I might add; this is a warm body of water. The lake temp here was just under 80*F today. --- Jer

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro., I am running 454 mag, brodix al. heads, 177 blowers, no water thermostats, remote oil filter with thermostat, HP6 filter, original red cap mobil 1, with always fantastic oil press. The oil thermostat is a 212 degree, do you think I should go with a 185? I do not have a oil temp guage and I know I will put one on, but what's your impression of this. And where should I put the guage?