Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Ok oK..e-mails keep coming in for a few more choices...here goes:


Castrol GTX 20W-50 cst 17.6@100*C

Kendall 20W-50 cst 17.1

Expect conventionals to shear down a grade after 20 hours of hard use..and expect a synthetic to keep going longer. Maybe twice as long.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Used 15W-50 M-1 shows virtually zero wear...the guy ran the oil for 6,784 miles. Could have gone much further. As M-1 does not contain sodium he probably has a coolant leak in the cooler so the oil was a bit "polluted". This shows that if M-1 gets "polluted" it holds up great. Not that water/coolant ever would get into a marine engine or anything... :D


Mobil 1 15w-50 BMW
Interval: 6,784 miles w/ oil filter change at 3k
Miles on car: 75K

Al-3
Cr-1
Fe-9
Cu-7
Pb-1
Sn-0
Mo-83
Ni-1
Mn-0
Ag-0
Ti-0
K-0
B-162
Si-3
Na-26
Ca-2924
Mg-26
P-1129
Zn-1500
Ba-0

Blackstone notes summary: Sodium is not an additive in Mobil 1, possible anti-freeze contamination. Wear is perfect.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I did some research on "iron" wear. A small amount of iron uncaptured by the oil filter can quickly cause mounting wear from the iron in the oil scouring the cylinders.

They say a good magnetic oil plug can really help control this. In a marine application due to practicality magnet oil filter devices are strongly suggested.

www.filtermag.com

I think we talked about this but it really appears that they do work and help a lot. The problem is iron particles are 2 microns,,,too small for oil filters.

Tests done on a Land Rover:

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/f...ndexmain.shtml

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked again for oil filter suggestions:

This is a summary from the oil filter study..


Excellent filtering; very good flowing: Amsoil SD

Excellent filtering; good flowing: Mobil-1

Very good filtering: good flowing: Merc HP/racing

.................................................. .............................

Very good filtering; Excellent flowing : Fram HP

Very Good filtering; Excellent flowing: Puralator Pure 1



.................................................. ................................

Good to very good filtering; Excellent flowing: K&N

Good filtering; Very good flowing: Fram ExtraGurad

Good filtering; very good flowing: A/C

.................................................. ....................................

You high mega HP guys need excellent flow...everybody else
can take their pick.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

http://www.stylinconcepts.com/parts....tfamilyid/1585

These are cool oil filter magnets..nice price too.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I did do tests last summer... :D

In summary:

#1. V-twin held it's Csts @ 100*C for 50 hours in a 502 MPI...low wear.

#2. 15W-50 Redcap held it's Csts to 20 hours unchanged; 30 hours slight drop in viscosity and 50 hrs.. down about a 1/2 grade. Low wear..

#3. Conventional 20W-50's and straight weights typically drop a full grade..ie went from a 40 wt to a 30 wt in 20 hours. Low wear.

The conclusion is if you use a 20W-50 or straight weight conventional in a 502 run hard you have to do 20 hour changes. With Redcap you get no shear out to 20 hours and then a bit out to 50 hours...but NOT a full grade. Conventionals are down a full grade in 20 hours.

I did the tests last summer in a 42' Fountain with 502 MPI's.
ran it hard too folks.

I have not done Goldcap recently...no access to the boat this summer it was sent down South.

I found Amsoil 20w-50 Series 2000 to be close to V-twin but not as tough out to 50 hours. It dropped a grade at 50 hours.

These tests were in stock engines. Every engine and setup is different. But I think these results say something. I hope others try some tests and report back. If you get the same or different results it is worth knowing.

BGLZ42..I noticied your Kendall had some gas and perhaps antifreeze in it. There are tons of factors why oils fail and breakdown.

It's tough to expect scientific proof with just UAO's as there are too many variables...all we can show are patterns. The patterns show synthetics are a benefit in marine engines...they give you an edge of protection that conventionals can't.

Use what you like..but that's what trend has been shown over the last year with many oso members backing up their experiences with synthetic oil it does offer more protection to and it can be seen on oil temp. gauges.

I don't want this to get into a pizzing contest on which is better. It dosen't matter. All that matters is that we have information to base choices on. It has been provided.

I was at the St. Clair Offshore race today. One of the winning teams had cases of M-1 V-Twin in thier trailer..they started using it after hearing stories from mechanics here on oso. They won one of the races today. They will not switch.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

You will not see ExxonMobil post anything about offshore or performance test on oil. They put all their nuts and bolts in passenger car tests. They feel the market is too small for them to handle. I have researched test on performance boats. I can't find anything from ExxonMobil. The only way ou can find things out is by talking to people who have used it for years or engine builders.. I will go look for my Signum Oil Analysis results from our Sterlings. You will be a little shocked.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I tried to get the results out of my fathers hands. Since he's the CEO and my boss, I am unable to post them. He said they were proprietary to General Petroleum and ExxonMobil. So if that's any indication of how bad the Mobil 1 results came back. All I can state is that they were full of metal wear and fuel dilution that demanded a change immediately. The viscosity was way out of range. I am I stating it's bad oil no. Just beat up. This was after one Poker Run.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thanks Vandy! That's interesting. I think M1 is one of the best products on the market, but like anything it's not bulletproof! Our engines, like MC engines, beat the snot out of motor oil.

I don't expect to see any data out of Exxon-Mobil. I'd like to see an OSO'ers oil be sent to Blackstone (or any other lab) for some realtime data. Data from an actual boat, used by an actual boater. Man, I'd pay for a UOA of oil from an F1 boat after a race or two!

I'm going to pull a sample for my friend's boat (Captwk's 42' Sonic, 525's) next week. He's running Mercruiser 25w40. Should be interesting.

Take care, Jim

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It was posted last June of 2004.

What we found was that the same oil in the same type of engines could give differing results. We think it's due to the type of boat and how it's set up. A 502 MPI in a 42'er vs a 35'er can be the difference. Weight is a huge factor on how hard the engines run and stress the oil.

So that having been said.. what works for one guy may not for another to the same extent. Similar motors may run hotter than others. It's a non-scientific guess running UAO's and deciding what's "best". I gave it up. It takes much more than that.

What I realized is maybe 90+% of the guys on Bob's site all use a synthetic of one sort or another. They have bought into them and so have I. There are still conventional users. This is not a battle nor can it be a scientific way of getting a conclusion cheaply.

The greatest use of a UAO is to see how YOUR engine is performing...not to judge an oil. To judge an oil you need many samples from a testing source that also pulls the engines apart and examines the internals. We just can't fool our selves into thinking anything else is all. Sterling did the testing..call them as i did they run M-1 ..ask Craig.

My .02

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The Brad Penn boys are claiming Sterling has switched to their oil..

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The last thing I want to partake in is a battle over which is best. If UAO's are to be meaningful you have to switch to an oil when the engine is new; do repeated samples every 20 hours for the life of the engine and have others do the same. We need apples to apples...same size and weight of boat...same degree of use...everything logged...then a mechanic inspection...it's too much work for us...

As far as I am concerned Sterling did it already. If they use M-1 now great if they switched they still found it to be a great oil in their machines. People switch for lots of reasons.

I already agreed to the fact that 20W-50 Kendall; Castrol and Exxon SuperFlow are great multi-vis oils. Their straight weight oils possibly even better at retaining Cst's...

Volvo-Penta is now offering synthetics..Illmor and Sterling and several others.

About 50% of offshore boaters use synthetic and 50% conventional.

V-Twin seems to give us stories of main bearings looking like new..over and over...UAO's are UAO's...teardown's where the autopsy results come into play

Everybody is right. :D

It's easier to get data from cars as most are run kinda of in the same routine manner. Offshore boat use can vary a lot from boat to boat. Same with motorcycles.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion...

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hmmm.. I saw Mike at SOTW, it seemed that they were still using Mobil 1 in July. Everyone is always changing. I wonder :rolleyes:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

They are always evaluating new products..a guy I know has 1059's was told..15w-50 M-1 is a good choice..that was in mid-July too.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Another decent lubrication webiste/bulletin board.

http://forums.noria.com/groupee/foru...m&cf=616604995

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Vegetable based engine oils...

http://www.renewablelube.com/

...you go first :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Mobil-1 and iron in UAO's (test samples)...must read.

"You will find tha Mobil 1 will clean your system and the detergent/dispersant system will hold more particles in suspension (ie your normal oil may be dropping out wear metals in sludge at the bottom of the sump which is not seen in your oil sample). You should also remember that the wear metal analysis done by most UOA labs is based on ICP and the wear metal particles reported are less than 10 microns in size. Some of the iron you are seeing is in the form of metal soaps which will be more soluble in a good detergent/dispersant package.
Mobil did some engine tests switching from a mineral oil to Mobil 1 and saw increased wear metals in UOA. Engine strip down actually showed less wear in comparison to the mineral based engines"

SO it's saying iron in this oil is due to the chemistry holding it suspension to protect parts from wear. Other oils let it settle out...interesting theory..

Teardown not UAO's is where you see how an oil performs.

That's why I look at UAO's with a grain of salt...I have seen engines with no wear on UAO's look like chit when taken apart and vice versa..

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Speaking of Vegetable based lubricants and this is somewhat off the subject. ExxonMobil has a full slate of vegetable based lubricants called EAL's or Environmental Awareness Lubricants.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro,
How do you know so much of oils
Do you work in the industry?
Jack Jr.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Once he learned the "cut and paste" functions on his keyboard, he became an expert. :cool:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

:D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I do lots of research in everything from legal matters to oil....oil is difficult in comparison :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Got a question ...if UAO's (oil analysis) can not always determine accurate iron levels what's the use for them??

Here is the use for UAO's:

-They can tell you what is in a brand new bottle of oil...the manufacturer will not.

-You can follow the wear metals in YOUR engine..if things suddenly change for the worse you may be clued into a problem before something major happens.

-It can tell you ...after several samples...how often to change the oil in YOUR engine better.

-It can in a new bottle of oil sampled check to see if a manufacturer has reformulated without you being aware of it.

What it can't do:

-Tell you exactly what your engine looks like inside..you need a tear-down for that.

-Can't compare different engines under different stress loads and send in samples and expect a scientific result.


Is it worth doing?

It costs $20/test....it's optional

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

One thing is for sure...if you read all of this thread...and I will bet you haven't... you will know more than most everyone... but the oil chemists.

...cut and paste that :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I am currently co-oping at lubrizol in their mech testing lab. It seems you (Hydro) have a good sense of whats going on in the industry. He**, a whole lot more than i do. I do agree if you read the whole thread, there is alot of valuable info.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That's what I say. He needs to come buy me out. I am ready to retire, esp. now that I have to have armored cars follow the trucks of oil back from ExxonMobil since the price of crude is so high.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Armored cars...hopefully you are kidding? :eek:

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

There is a semi-fluid grease that we get in bulk for a little company called Wabash National. They make trailers for everyone.. Maybe you have heard of them. They buy a grease a fully synthetic grease that is 5.69/lb. A whole tuck load cost around 250K for a load. The grease is warrantied for the life of the trailer. That's some juice.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

.....about the price of a pound of sliced Turkey.. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Turkey is going for 250K a truck load!?!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I would keep an eye on the truck too if it had 250k in it.


Hey Craig..ya keeping cool?

I love this summer weather..a hot summer is a good summer!

Take care guy! :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It'd be better if we had a 46XP that was on the water.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Some info for the Kendall users here:

http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/NR/rd..._GT1_HP_MO.pdf

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

HOpe it is soon!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

http://www.titanlab.com/

This company will lab test many different fluids and lubricants.

Gasoline...anti-freeze...oil...even grease.

I was asked why test gasoline?

This lab does forensic testing. If a product such as anti-freeze; oil; grease or gasoline was defective and ruined your engine they will test and represent in court if necessary.

We are talking about a product affecting many engines and a class-action usually. It happens.

But for the average guys it can determine octane; if additives are present ..water etc..

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked a couple times on how long to run 15W-50 Goldcap in a stock 502 or 496 if you run moderately hard but only once in a while.

My best guess is that Goldcap Extended can be run about 30-40 hours before needing a change. I do know of a guy who runs it for 50 hours but does a filter change at 25 hours and fills the new filter up with oil as the old filter is removed. His filter is obviously installed "upside down".

50 hours with Goldcap extended is reasonable to consider in a boat that is not racing or running full bore a lot.

I was asked why I talk about Mobil-1 so much...well if you want a great product "off the shelf" at a great pirce. M-1 15W-50 at Walmarts in gallon containers comes out to $5.45 /qt. M-1 20W-50 V-Twin is $7.00/qt at Walmarts.

Most other synthetics go for more and up to $ 10.00/qt.

That's why. :D


I was again asked if the $7.00/qt Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin is as good as a $10.00 20W-50. The answer is yes and save $3.00/qt. I have not found anything that beats it. It flows well in cooler weather...protects like a 50wt in hot weather...it has the right anti-wear and special anti-corrosion additives. It is a hard act to beat.

Not everybody needs it...Goldcap is fine unless you run full throttle all the time or race.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Not to make a plug, but sometimes if there is a local ExxonMobil distributor, they can be cheaper than Wallylandl!! :)

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Do you have a list of distributers in Michigan?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I was asked what conventional 20W-50 I would use if I decided to go conventional in that viscosity...

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=50

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes, as long as you don't heckle them!! :drink: