Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I had always heard that one of the last things you want is for the oil to foam. How can one of the best gear case lubes have a foaming tendancy?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I have two Yamaha FX HO (160hp). One is a 2005 and the other is a 2006. The Owners manuals are dated Jan 2004 and September 2005 respectively but both say 10W30.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes the Amsoil
SAE 10W-30 Formula 4-Stroke®
Marine Synthetic Motor Oil (WCT) looks to be the best choice. Is it a full synthetic base?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What did you get grandma, a quart of V-Twin?

Happy Holidays, and thanks for all the advice.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

It is not "foam" like shaving cream foam. It is called air entrapment. Never useing the Redline stuff but reading about it, people have said it is a messy fluid, kind of like liquid silicon, I am guessing that there is an additive called a tackifier in the blend to help the oil "climb" up the gears. This additive is also found in bar & chain lube or in any application where you whant to retain the lubricant on the surface; chains, cables,etc. The tackifier will increase the viscosityof the fluid making it harder for air bubbles to escape when the oil is cold. When the oil heats up and thins out, the bubbles escape more easily. Take cold gear lube and whip it up in the blender and then do the same with hot oil ...big difference. You will also have then same "air entrapment" condition using very heavy straight weight oils. Older harleys are famous for this. Pull the drain plug on the oil tank and oil will drain out, as you get near the end of the drain, its all bubbles. Although the straight 60 and 70 weight oils do not have a tackifer added, the results are the same because of the heavy viscosity of the oil.
Tackifir, when added to oil will make "working" with it more of a problem then "working" with an oil without it. Just pour some bar 7 chain on the floor and start cleaning it up.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Excellent explaination! Much appreciated.

I can attest that the Redline gear lube is messy stuff as well as chain saw lube which like to leak out of my saw over the summer. I put up with it because I thought that it was the best for my drive.

I remember an owners manual warning against overfilling an automatic transmission that if overfilled could result in the oil foaming. This was a warning so the implication was that damage could occur. Is that not the case with the foaming of the gear lube in a drive?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Rage, my friend's ski I'm referring to is an '06 VX Deluxe with the 110 HP 4-stroke. Its manual states a variety of oils ranging from 5W-30 to 20W50. Surprised the heck out of me since my 140 HP called for 10W30 only and the 110 HP is simply a detuned version of the same motor.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

In all honestly, I really can't beleive a modern day quality lubricant foams. The anti-foam additve that is used in oils is added at very low percentages and is probably already in the dertergent package that the blender buys.
I really do not know how you how you overfill a lower unit seeing how you fill from the bottom until it flows out the top hole, but stranger things have happened.
As far as you automatic transmission, overfilling wouldn't cause foam, what it causes is the oil to "puke" out from overfilling. Oil expands with heat, if you start with an oil level that too high, when it expands it will be even higher. It could "grow" enough to puke out the fill tube or push out a seal/gasket. This could be the same issue in a outdrive.
A quat of oil is a quart at 60*F. This is buy/sell temp of oil. At lower temps you have less than a qt and at higher temps you have more. This is the reason engine manufactures want you to check you oil the same way evey time. BMW automatics have to have their transmission oil checked at a certain oil temp, a real pain in the ass.
Anyway, I hoped I helped.

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes the AMSOIL Marine motor oils are full synthetic base stocks.
10w-30 = http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/wct.aspx?zo=1132530
10w-40 = http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/wcf.aspx?zo=1132530

The nice thing about these oils is that they use a base and additive package very similar to the new Motorcycle Oils. This is the chemistry that I see AMSOIL going to in more and more of their motor oils in the future. They have also added the Small Engine SAE30/10w-30 oil which also share similarities. http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/ase.aspx?zo=1132530

Take a look at this report that shows how the AMSOIL motorcycle oils stand up to the comp. http://www.modernoils.com/media/pdf_...Comparison.pdf

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Yes that is strange that the same motor has different recomendations. That is one heck of a range of oil viscosity for the 110 hp.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That is good to hear that you can still get a full synthetic at lower viscosities since Mobil1 has reportedly abandoned full synthetic except for the high viscosity motor cycle oils.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I did not mean to equate overfilling a drive with over filling a car transmission with regards to oil foaming. But if one would fill the dirve to the top of the sight reservoir with cold and oil and then run it hot I would not be surprised if the oil expansion woould find a way to make a mess. I only ment to recount my only experience with "oil foaming" in regards to what the owners manual said about overfilling the automatic transmission i.e. that oil foaming could result. I have not clue it that was a fact or not.

I am familiar with the heat expansion of oil since the Yamaha Wave runners I have say to check the oil level hot after changing the oil to make sure that it is not over full. I always seem to have to siphon off some ounces when I check it after an oil change.

It always is of a help.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That is correct. It seems that all the new M1 EP oils are now a Group III petroleum base stock.

Regardless of the lies that Mobil tells you through their tech support this has been confirmed through gas chromatography testing. It is a shame that they decrease the quality of the product and continue to increase the price as if the quality was actually improving. What was ExxonMobils last quarter profit???

Seems that AMSOIL and Redline are about the only TRUE full synthetic oils on the market.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Well that is where I am going. Is Amsol available by other than mail order?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Mail order IS the way to do it. By following the instructions at the link below you can purchase at cost much like a Sam'a Club membership and it comes right to your door. There are often locals that may have it but they will have to pay shipping to get it to them so that is added to the price and they will also mark it up some for profit.

If you do not want the membership, email the address at this link and you will be taken care of at cost without the membership.

http://www.modernoils.com/Purchase_at_Dealer_Cost.html

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Much appreciated.

Bill

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Did anyone happen to notice the sticker on the oil-fill cap on the new Ilmor 700's? It states Mobil 1 0W-40 factory fill. Is this oil cap a carry-over from the Viper or is Ilmor really filling these mills with 0W-40?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

We know 15W-50 M-1 is a better choice.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

..grandma got the usual coal..:D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

You know your stuff 02man..


Here is my take:

The MCO (Like V-Twin) and HDEO (Delvac 1) are still Group IV/V and they have always been my top picks.

Oil fanatics are pizzed off to say the least...check this out..

I borrowed this from an oil thread...

Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec have betrayed the public and ruined the credibility of synthetic oil.

Group III and GTL may be , or could be, as good or even better than PAO ...but why do oil companies feel it is ok to mislead us and price gouge as well?

Mobil 1 used to be under $4/qt when it was a true synthetic. Group III faux synthetics used to cost from $1 something / qt to $4/ qt.

Now Mobil 1 Group III Faux costs $6 /qt to $7 /qt... is it any wonder that I feel ripped off , and I am now strongly anti-Mobil 1?

Redline, Castrol GC, Amsoil, Pennzoil Platinum [on sale], Delvac 1, Delo 400, Rotella T and Rotella 5W-40 faux syn, Trop Arctic/Havoline/Motorcraft are on the 'A' list and Mobil 1/ Castrol Syntec are on the 'S' list.
I especially like Redline, it is now about the same price as M1 and Redline is still the best oil I've tried.

I am now using Penzoil/Amsoil/Redline or Delvac 1 in my cars and V-twin; Amsoil Severe Service Racing or Redline in the boat.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Spectro Oil blends a full synthetic(group 4) PAO in 0w-40, 5w-40, 10w40,10w50, 15w50, 20w50.
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What is it about Redline that makes it the best oil you have ever tried?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Agree, but I'm still curious as to what Ilmor is putting in the motors.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Redline and M-1 V-twin are mostly derived from Group V bases and therefore can go beyond 500*F before being destroyed. Most oils are shot at or around 400*F.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I called today and they use 15W-50 M-1 interestlingly enough as does Sterling.:D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

The question becomes do we continue with M-1 15W-50 from a number of you?

My answer is that in an offshore boat you need the best edge you can get if you are to see the most longevity from your engine. I like a Group IV/V synthetic best.

Here are the 2007 2,000lb. synthetic oil gorrillas:

M-1 V-Twin 20W-50/Redline 20W-50/RP 20W-50/Amsoil Severe Service 20W-50/Spectro 20W-50.The list is getting shorter.

Yes...15W-50 M-1 is still a great product and i use it as well. It is NOT on the list above however.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Hydro, what's your take on the new Amsoil 10W40 marine oil that is FC-W certified? Supposed to be an acceptable replacement for Merc 25W40.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

That's what I figured. Thanks!

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Mercury 25W-40 is a blend of straight 25 wt and 40 wt oils ...so I am told. The overall viscosity can not therefore be compared to a multi-vis oil as it supposedly does not have polymers that react and increase viscosity with heat. So the lowest viscosity the oil can be said to perform at is 25wt. Therefore a 10 wt is too light.

The bottom line is Merc's product is more comparable to a straight weight 40.

So using a 10W-40 multi-vis oil in place of a 40 wt will probably lead to some type of problems and most notably probably increased wear.

We hear that the following oil viscosities are used routinely and successfully;

15W-50
25W-40 Mercury
20W-50
15W-40 Amsoil Synthetic ("pleasure boats")
30wt if less than 50*F
40 wt for temps between 75-85*F
50wt for temps over 85*F

For 4-stroke outboards I like a 10W-40 such as Amsoil's or 10W-40 V-twin.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

To address more concerns about Group III synthetic oils...

While I prefer Group IV/V bases, modern group-III oils can nearly match the performance of PAOs at about half the price. Because of this, PAO based oils are rapidly disappearing. There are new processes being investigated which may significantly cut the cost of producing PAOs, and make them an important component of oil again.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Thanks a do appreciate your compliment. :D

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Let's see if I can help out here.

The Merc 25w-40 is a 40 wt oil not a combination of multiple weights.

This is much like the AMSOIL ACD 10W-30/SAE 30 and the AMSOIL ASE 10W-30/SAE 30. These oils are SAE 30 motor oils that meet the cold flow criteria to be considered multigrades. Your typical 10w-30 oils require the use of Viscosity Index Improvers (VII) added to lighter grade oils to acheive the multigrade specs while these oils use high viscosity index, wax-free synthetic bases. This means these oils start a SAE30 and stay an SAE30 not start as a low viscosity base stock, add viscosity improvers, and act like a heavier oil. The problem is your typical 10w-30 is more susceptible to shearing as you lose Viscosity Improvers while the "Combo" oils stay strong.

How does this relate to the Merc 25w-40???? My feeling is this oil is a SAE40 oil but meets the 25W criteria for cold flow like the AMSOIL oils above.

Are you confused yet?
Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Not at all. That is my understanding of the new Amsoil FC-W rated 10W40 marine oil. It is a 40W oil with the flow characteristics of a 10W when cold.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Spectro 4 20w50 is their petroleum. Spectro Heavy Duty Platinum 20w50 is their synthetic 20w50 for V-Twins.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Makes total sense to me, until you throw in the term "Combo oils" which you appear to link to the synthetic base oils but I am not clear on why they would be refered to as a Combo oil. Very small point but confusing none the less.

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

What is the best "street price" for each of these and the Spectro Platinum 20W50?

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

If an oil label has listed a 10w30 for viscosity, that oil meets the specifications of a 10w at zero* F AND a SAE 30 at 210* F. Two different specs...........two differect viscosities... thats the way it is. If you took an SAE 30 and a 10w30 and placed them in your refridgerator, the 10w30 will pour easier than a straight 30, thats the difference between a muti vis and a straight weight. At 210*F they both meet the same test specs. A manufacture can put a multi vis 10w30 in a bottle and sell it as either a 10w30 or a SAE 30 or a 10w, all legal, a little improper, but legal.
Some multi viscosity oils do not have any polymer to shear. When you blend some base stocks they produce a base stock that could have very desirible charateristics not available in either of the originals. "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

I got a bunch of PM's that expressed discontent with M-1 15W-50 EP allegedly changing over to GRP III.

Am I happy with this decision? Not in the least!

Is 15W-50 still a good product ...yes.

Is there something out there for around $6.00/qt that remains a true Grp IV PAO with excellent ZDDP additives etc?

Yes!!

What is it?

Royal Purple 20W-50 sold in 5 gallon pails and shipped UPS free to your door for $6.25/qt and $6.99 in single quarts. While at it their gearlube is excellent and a PAO product as well.
How do I get it?

http://www.rpmoil.com/index.php?main...b62a8a9bc42262

Is this what I would use if I decided not to use V-Twin @ $9.00/qt. Yes.

I am hence moving my 15W-50 M-1 use over to RP 20W-50 as it is a PAO/ better value and quite comparable to V-twin as well for $6.25/qt in bulk 5 gallon units with free UPS delivery in the 48's..

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

Your are correct when you say that 10W and SAE30 are different specs. But so are 20W and SAE20. SAE 20 and SAE 20W are two totally separate monograde classifications. SAE 20 describes the high temperature viscosity of the oil and SAE 20W describes the low temperature cranking capability of the oil. Not all xW ratings are made at 0* F. While the high temp viscosities are rated at 100C or 212F, the "w" ratings use low temperature cranking viscosities at different temperatures.

SAE Viscosity-Cranking (cP)
Grade - Max at temp oC

0W - 6200 at –35
5W - 6600 at –30
10W - 7000 at –25
15W - 7000 at –20
20W - 9500 at –15
25W - 13,000 at –10

An oil can be classified as a multigrade SAE 20W-20 if the oil can meet both the low temperature cranking viscosity of 9500 cP at –15C and the 100C high temperature kinematic viscosity requirement between 5.6 and 9.3 cSt. The AMSOIL motor oils listed above meet both the low temperature requirements of SAE 10W and the high temperature requirements of SAE 30. Thus the products are true SAE 10W-30 and SAE 30 oils.

Ken

Re: Marine Lubrication
 

You can also get 5ea AMSOIL ARO 20w-50 1 gallon jugs shipped to you for around $137 which is RPM's normal price.